Originally Posted by Independence Now!:
Where is the evidence that Cameron is anything more than a 'Eurosceptic' in any way other than rhetoric? His policy is that Britain stays in the EU regardless of the damage it is causing our country.

There is none and if it were a party full of Camerons then I'd have cause for concern. What appears to be happening is Cameron is acting like more of a manager than a leader in his party. He delegates stuff and when the 42-day business came up he gave Davis a free hand in running it. So there is more democracy at the cabinet table and it's more of a case of what composition does his party consist of. What I suspect is it is the party that has shifted its position and Cameron sits amongst them and checks to see where the common ground exists, and it seems to be heading in the eurosceptic direction.

When he tried to do something about it there was such a weight of support for euroscepticism that he nearly ran into a spot of bother, and after that he decided to ask for a referendum and attack Labour on it to keep the party happy. After that the party got a strong lead in the polls and Cameron has stuck with it. The story continues and where it will end I can not say. None of us will know before he gets into power and decides to do something. What he does first will be most telling to what his priorities are. If I were into gambling I'd say it would be some green measure. We have been here before many times and so it's no time to relax over it and just hope Cameron does what he says, he should be held to account. A referendum is waiting to happen.
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The most this will ever amount to is rhetoric when judged politically expedient. Anything more would require a total switch of thinking about the EU - near enough inconceivable in the Tory party leadership.
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Originally Posted by eublues:
The most this will ever amount to is rhetoric when judged politically expedient. Anything more would require a total switch of thinking about the EU - near enough inconceivable in the Tory party leadership.

Or any party for that matter. Things rarely switch, they more often shift over time in line with events. If you want to get out of the EU I think the best thing to do is recognise this and help it along. I even think that a number of Libdems might eventually become eurosceptic; indeed there is a handful at the moment who recently made a stand. If this continues there will become a point where enough MPs from all parties are sufficiently sceptical to make it impossible to get EU legislation through. We are really not too far from that point at the moment. The Irish have been a great help and things are generally working out. We don't want to alienate these people, it's much better to guide rather than push them.
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Originally Posted by Baron von Lotsov:
Or any party for that matter. Things rarely switch, they more often shift over time in line with events. If you want to get out of the EU I think the best thing to do is recognise this and help it along. I even think that a number of Libdems might eventually become eurosceptic; indeed there is a handful at the moment who recently made a stand. If this continues there will become a point where enough MPs from all parties are sufficiently sceptical to make it impossible to get EU legislation through. We are really not too far from that point at the moment. The Irish have been a great help and things are generally working out. We don't want to alienate these people, it's much better to guide rather than push them.

On the Facebook House Of Commons I managed to get a Lib Dem to resign his post after educating him on what the EU really is about.
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Originally Posted by Earthling:
On the Facebook House Of Commons I managed to get a Lib Dem to resign his post after educating him on what the EU really is about.

That's fantastic news and proves it can be done. A lot of them have been heavily lied to, but of course we can change that!
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Originally Posted by eublues:
The most this will ever amount to is rhetoric when judged politically expedient. Anything more would require a total switch of thinking about the EU - near enough inconceivable in the Tory party leadership.

As long as Howe, Heseltine, Herd, Clarke, Brittain and Patten are alive, the modern Tories will dither over Europe. Unfortunately I think my one time hero Hague is tarred with the same EU loving brush!
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Ah but tell me honestly how much have we heard from Heseltine & Clarke these days. Absolutely zero, which of course is a good thing. I think the deal cuts both ways in the Tory Party and some of the troublemakers of the europhile brigade have also been told to shut up, and besides I have sneaking suspicion that their views are so counter to the general consensus that they would only be shooting themselves in the foot anyway.

The party were teetering between europhile and eurosceptic for a long while and the europhiles were doing a lot of damage. Now it seems it has resolved itself on the eurosceptic side. As the voters in this country become more and more eurosceptic then it is the rational position to be in for a Tory. Most of the europhile arguments have proved to be so utterly wrong and quite dishonest in retrospect, that it seems the slide is already happening.

What we should do is play one party off against the other. It would help to have some eurosceptic Labour MPs to make the Tories distinguish themselves all the more as genuine rather than fake eurosceptics. The same goes for the Libdems. Indeed I hold out more hope with them since their philosophy, as stated, is completely counter to the EU. How can they be for democracy when the EU is counter democratic? As the Common Purpose people tell us, they have plans for something called the 'post-democratic society'. The Libdems need to be aware of this and once the cat is out of the bag its not going to get back in it.
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The trouble with Cameron's Tories at the moment is that they are trying to please everybody.
They are trying to keep the grassroots on board but also (and very successfully so far) trying to please the broader public.

The fact is that this can only happen for so long before they run out of road and they will have to make some hard decisions. Life as the main opposition is easy, particularly when you are against a Government as unpopular as New Labour.

But in the future, they will have to make some very tough decisions and be a lot more specific about Europe, and that will mean NOT pleasing some people.
As Baron already said, with people becoming more and more Eurosceptic as the news focus on the corruption and intrusiveness of the EU continues, the Tories should realistically side with the Eurosceptics which arguably make up most of this country.
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