A question from a curious American

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Well, I won't go into it further but wow. I would never give up my nationhood so that others somewhere else can have more power.

So do you support your State breaking from the Union then?

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
And when the people in power (nothing like in comparison to Bush's "Cabinet", not sure how you could even try to make that comparison)

I'm not making a direct comparison. I just said it would be very easy to create a European system whereby an elected President could appoint his own cabinet.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
are there representing "you" who you never had a chance to vote there,and not even from your own country, you've lost a huge part of what it means to be democratic.

It would be very easy to turn the EU into a full-fledged democracy. They don't because it would have Eurosceptics foaming at the mouth about a "USE" or "EU Superstate". Making the EU a democratic body would only confirm that it's heading in the direction of being a state in its own right.

Also, you don't vote for Senators or Congressmen from other states, so it's really not that different.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
People call it the United States of Europe, but in practice it won't be anything like a "United States". I am from Minnesota, but I still consider people in New York or California etc.. to be Americans, and the people in Washington are still subject to my vote (even though they have more power than many of the elected officials in Minnesota), and they certainly aren't Germans or French heh.

Er, we would be 'Europeans'. I'm sure a New Yorker would be very quick to point the difference between themselves and a Texan out. You don't get to vote for the Senators from another state, and I've said before it would be very easy to have an elected European presidency.

I'm not too keen on the American political system anyway - in particular pork barrel legislation is awful.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Lastly the EU will really be run by the few more powerful states, and the rest will be bullied (see Ireland) until the more powerful ones get what they want.

What about Rhode Island then, or Hawaii? Isn't the whole point of Super Tuesday is that it was a way for certain states to actually be recognised on the US presidential primary calendar? You can't tell me that certain states aren't sidelined in favour of the more populous ones.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
And I'm not sure what people think the "benefit" of a centrally run non democratic state will be, when it comes down to your everyday life, your civil liberties etc.. , you will see a definite decline in quality of life, but maybe slightly more power and money for the unelected officals in power (that certainly won't help "you" at all, OR your country)

Economically we're doing very nicely thanks. For example, I do believe Airbus beat Boeing to a US Defence Contract by offering a superior product. UK retailer Tesco has also penetrated the US market.

As for civil liberties, what are the USA Patriot Act and Real ID Act all about then?

I won't even go into the USA illegally abducting European Citizens,using UK airbases without lawful authority and extraordinary rendition. I won't even mention Guantanamo Bay. Whoops.

And as I've already covered - the EU could very easily be democratic, but it would be perceived as another step towards the 'superstate'.

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Originally Posted by The Bear:
We’re creating the United States of Europe

Ha ha ha ha! Keep dreaming bear.

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Originally Posted by Westcountryman:
So do you support your State breaking from the Union then?

I'm not making a direct comparison. I just said it would be very easy to create a European system whereby an elected President could appoint his own cabinet.

It would be very easy to turn the EU into a full-fledged democracy. They don't because it would have Eurosceptics foaming at the mouth about a "USE" or "EU Superstate". Making the EU a democratic body would only confirm that it's heading in the direction of being a state in its own right.

Also, you don't vote for Senators or Congressmen from other states, so it's really not that different.

Er, we would be 'Europeans'. I'm sure a New Yorker would be very quick to point the difference between themselves and a Texan out. You don't get to vote for the Senators from another state, and I've said before it would be very easy to have an elected European presidency.

I'm not too keen on the American political system anyway - in particular pork barrel legislation is awful.

What about Rhode Island then, or Hawaii? Isn't the whole point of Super Tuesday is that it was a way for certain states to actually be recognised on the US presidential primary calendar? You can't tell me that certain states aren't sidelined in favour of the more populous ones.

Economically we're doing very nicely thanks. For example, I do believe Airbus beat Boeing to a US Defence Contract by offering a superior product. UK retailer Tesco has also penetrated the US market.

As for civil liberties, what are the USA Patriot Act and Real ID Act all about then?

I won't even go into the USA illegally abducting European Citizens,using UK airbases without lawful authority and extraordinary rendition. I won't even mention Guantanamo Bay. Whoops.

And as I've already covered - the EU could very easily be democratic, but it would be perceived as another step towards the 'superstate'.

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Most of what you saying really doesn't make a lot of sense...

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It would be very easy to turn the EU into a full-fledged democracy. They don't because it would have Eurosceptics foaming at the mouth about a "USE" or "EU Superstate". Making the EU a democratic body would only confirm that it's heading in the direction of being a state in its own right.

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A. It would be easy huh? How do you figure that?
B. Even if it "would" be easy, it's certainly not happening, or even going in that direction.

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Also, you don't vote for Senators or Congressmen from other states, so it's really not that different.
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Um, other states laws don't affect my state... or me living in this state.. at ALL

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Er, we would be 'Europeans'. I'm sure a New Yorker would be very quick to point the difference between themselves and a Texan out. You don't get to vote for the Senators from another state, and I've said before it would be very easy to have an elected European presidency.

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You missed the point entirely. Europe is a "continent".. I am technically "American" but that's just what they call people from the United States.. Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans etc.." they are all "Americans" too, would that mean it's cool if we lose our national identities, we are all "Americans" anyway.,,, I shouldn't have to explain this any further.. As far as Senators from another state... They only make laws affecting that state "only" and "FEDERAL" law can always overwrite State.

I suppose by your logic , all Asians merging into "the Asian Union" (Chinese ,Japenese and Russions wouldn't mind just being called "asians" they have no national identity at "all" (sarcasm), as well as all Africans and South Americans too..

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I'm not too keen on the American political system anyway - in particular pork barrel legislation is awful.

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This is obvious from your comparisons.

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What about Rhode Island then, or Hawaii? Isn't the whole point of Super Tuesday is that it was a way for certain states to actually be recognised on the US presidential primary calendar? You can't tell me that certain states aren't sidelined in favour of the more populous ones.

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Rhode Island or Hawaii? What are you talking about? States don't individually vote on Federal Issues, so not sure how a State, let alone those particular Random states have to do with my comparison to the recent vote and Ireland or even the entire thing. Why would states bully each other? They don't concern each other in their legislation, and Federal issues have nothing to do with individual States.

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As for civil liberties, what are the USA Patriot Act and Real ID Act all about then?

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Those acts do suck. That's pretty obvious, so why would you defend something with similarities to that?

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Economically we're doing very nicely thanks. For example, I do believe Airbus beat Boeing to a US Defence Contract by offering a superior product. UK retailer Tesco has also penetrated the US market.

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Ok? What does that have to do with anything? And who's we? What does that have to do with your standard of living or anything else or civil liberties?
How much money big Corporations and people in power are making off something doesn't really correlate to the average Joe's standard of living (and I don't mean how much money they make, there are many more factors to standard of living)

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I won't even go into the USA illegally abducting European Citizens,using UK airbases without lawful authority and extraordinary rendition. I won't even mention Guantanamo Bay. Whoops.

And as I've already covered - the EU could very easily be democratic, but it would be perceived as another step towards the 'superstate'.

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What does that first paragraph have to do with "anything" here that we are discussing?

You are saying it would be easy, but won't happen. So even if it was so "easy" as you say, you also say it's not going to happen, so what's the point there?

Finally, all the "states" in the United States, were not seperate "countries" each with a VERY long history, and a lot of that history being bloody conflict with each other when the US was formed.. Not to mention it's a very different world out there right now.

I suppose you are going to tell me next how good of an idea one world government would be and how easy that would be to make democratic also.

And the other guy is right about the civil war, now imagine putting hundreds of years of bad memories and conflict behind the two sides.

But in the end... I'm not European, if you want that kind of thing, then that's your choice, not mine, it's not really going to affect me too much, but a word to the wise, that's a pretty huge change in your way of life, you might want to think a little more about it before you just go off thinking "Cool man we will be just like the United States then!" (It won't be , at all)

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Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
A. It would be easy huh? How do you figure that?

By establishing the appropriate framework through a Treaty.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
B. Even if it "would" be easy, it's certainly not happening, or even going in that direction.

That's because not many people want it to go in that direction.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
um, other states laws don't affect my state... or me living in this state.. at ALL

And Federal laws?

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
You missed the point entirely. Europe is a "continent"

So is America. Europe could also be a 'Country'.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
I am technically "American" but that's just what they call people from the United States.. Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans etc.." they are all "Americans" too, would that mean it's cool if we lose our national identities, we are all "Americans" anyway.,,, I shouldn't have to explain this any further.. As far as Senators from another state... They only make laws affecting that state "only" and "FEDERAL" law can always overwrite State.

Precisely so what's the difference? EU law overrides national law, Federal law overrides state law. I'm not seeing a difference here. We are already technically citizens of the European Union, has this meant I have lost my identity? No.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
I suppose by your logic , all Asians merging into "the Asian Union" (Chinese ,Japenese and Russions wouldn't mind just being called "asians" they have no national identity at "all" (sarcasm), as well as all Africans and South Americans too..

Of course they have identity, I just doubt they'll lose it. After all, the United Kingdom (a country most Americans probably couldn't point to on a map) has existed for centuries and we still have our own unique regional identities.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
This is obvious from your comparisons.

I don't understand why you think a democratic country called 'Europe' is somehow evil in your book, but the way the United States operates is presumably fine with you.

I am not endorsing the EU (far from it), I am just arguing that it couldbe democratic and operate in a similar way to the US. I am not drawing direct comparisons between the EU as it is now and the US, but rather what the EU could be.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Rhode Island or Hawaii? What are you talking about? States don't individually vote on Federal Issues,

Their congressmen do.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
so not sure how a State, let alone those particular Random states have to do with my comparison to the recent vote and Ireland or even the entire thing.

The vote in Ireland was on a Treaty, not legislation, so that's not really comparable. As for how it relates to the 'entire thing' I was drawing the following comparison:

The EU is undemocratic in its current form, this is for several reasons, one of which is that if it was wholly democratic it would be seen as a step towards a 'superstate'. If the EU went wholly democratic and became a state in its own right then I envisage a federal system, similar to that of the US.

You say Ireland can be bullied by larger states of the EU. Is it not also the case that smaller US states can be 'bullied' (namely have their wishes overridden) by the others?

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Those acts do suck. That's pretty obvious, so why would you defend something with similarities to that?

Whoah, how is the EU 'similar to that'? The EU is not a police state.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Ok? What does that have to do with anything? And who's we? What does that have to do with your standard of living or anything else or civil liberties?

If anything being a member of the EU has improved standard of living. The EU is not directly threatening civil liberties. "We" is the United Kingdom.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
How much money big Corporations and people in power are making off something doesn't really correlate to the average Joe's standard of living (and I don't mean how much money they make, there are many more factors to standard of living)

Those corporations employ average Joe. In fact, Airbus employs average Joe in Bristol and Wales. Thus corporations have a large impact on Joe's standard of living.

What does that first paragraph have to do with "anything" here that we are discussing?

The USA's apparent love for 'civil liberties'.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Finally, all the "states" in the United States, were not seperate "countries" each with a VERY long history, and a lot of that history being bloody conflict with each other when the US was formed.. Not to mention it's a very different world out there right now.

The States haven't always been united as one country, that was my point.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
I suppose you are going to tell me next how good of an idea one world government would be and how easy that would be to make democratic also.

Democratic? It's possible. Desirable? No.

And the other guy is right about the civil war, now imagine putting hundreds of years of bad memories and conflict behind the two sides.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
But in the end... I'm not European, if you want that kind of thing, then that's your choice, not mine, it's not really going to affect me too much, but a word to the wise, that's a pretty huge change in your way of life, you might want to think a little more about it before you just go off thinking "Cool man we will be just like the United States then!" (It won't be , at all)

Why would I want Europe to be like the United States? I'm quite fond of ol' blighty thanks.

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Well, you missed or confused most of my points or what I was saying entirely (completely on some of them), so I'm not going to retort again, because I guess that would be pointless :-)

In the end, everything else aside, you are taking a big step "back" from democracy and closer to "losing" much of what you hold dear in the name of freedom and civil liberties, not forward. If you can't see this, then you are blinding yourself.

And it's strange that you would defend the proposed Union, a lot of your defense of it showing how similar it is to the United States, yet also say you don't want it to be like the United States. If it is that similar, then you should be against it from what you say, and if it is dissimilar, why are so many of your arguing points that it's similar to the US? That's a contradiction and not logical at all.

I don't think you realize how complex some things are.

Just as a quick example. Do you have something similar to social security in the UK? Ok.. so when the power of government is transferred from your country... how will that work? How about other programs intended to help the people of the Uk? All that will be washed away, now all that money you put into it is going to go to everyone else , who didn't.

How are taxes going to work? Have you thought this through well?

If losing your national identity isn't a big deal, why ever fight Germany back in world war 2? You might as well just have let them invade and take over. Your economic numbers might have improved eventually then, and you would all just be a part of the same government, so I guess that would be cool right? (we all know that WOULDN'T be cool, but you get what I'm saying)

Why bother with national security at all then?

Everything you've ever worked for in the name of your Country, all the servicemen who died in the line of duty, everything, would be for what then?

If your duty to your own country as a citizen, your own national pride (i say the word pride loosely), everything, what's the point then? Nothing...

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and on a side note..

Why even have a British Armed Forces at all? Since you are just putting blind faith in the powers that be that you never had a chance to elect. What's the difference of letting them just take charge as is vs them marching on London and then establishing their will on your country and declaring you a colony or part of their new "federation" without firing a shot?

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Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
And it's strange that you would defend the proposed Union, a lot of your defense of it showing how similar it is to the United States, yet also say you don't want it to be like the United States. If it is that similar, then you should be against it from what you say, and if it is dissimilar, why are so many of your arguing points that it's similar to the US? That's a contradiction and not logical at all.

I don't defend the EU, in fact I am opposed to it.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Just as a quick example. Do you have something similar to social security in the UK? Ok.. so when the power of government is transferred from your country... how will that work?

Simply the decisions would be made in Brussels instead of London. Did you know that Brussels already makes 80% of our laws?

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
How about other programs intended to help the people of the Uk? All that will be washed away, now all that money you put into it is going to go to everyone else , who didn't.

The same applies to the rest of the EU though, just as your tax money might go to Arizona instead of whatever state you are from.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
How are taxes going to work? Have you thought this through well?

The recipient would be Brussels, not London. This would also be for the nations to decide, should such as thing ever be established.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
If losing your national identity isn't a big deal, why ever fight Germany back in world war 2? You might as well just have let them invade and take over. Your economic numbers might have improved eventually then, and you would all just be a part of the same government, so I guess that would be cool right?

As I said before, we haven't lost our identity, and I doubt we will lose it.

Why bother with national security at all then?

The EU is not a threat to our national security. In fact, the UK is the leading Western European power.

Originally Posted by jjohnson0000:
Everything you've ever worked for in the name of your Country, all the servicemen who died in the line of duty, everything, would be for what then?

Eh? As I said, we're not losing our national identity, so this doesn't really apply.

I'll also make clear, I support the UK as an independent country. I oppose the EU.

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Then you should be spending your time opposing it, not seemingly defending it (which is what it sounds like you were doing)

It's only the start now, you have to think where it will be 20 years from now.

And comparing the formation of a "European Union" to the way the US formed, it's not a very good comparison.

The US wanted independance because of taxation without representation (a big factor), they didn't want a far away government they couldnt elect making their laws. What if the original colonies started off by completely governing themselves, do you think it would be a good idea for them to be like "you know, we should really get together with mainland England and make some treaties so they can write govern and make more of our laws over there instead of here by us"

Being for the formation of the EU would be the complete opposite. Would be like saying "I'd like a far away government to be more in charge, not less, with less representation"

You mentioned the patriot act earlier. I despise that act, and it's a slow loss of our civil liberties here. But it's already in, however if I didn't act or even think about it at all and even partially defend it (even though I don't like it), if people didn't voice their disgust for it, it would just get worse, over the years, until eventually, all those rights would be gone. I oould say "sure it hasn't really done much so far", but if I were to remain blind to those things, eventually more and more of those type of "acts" (or treaties?) would get passed until I one day woke up to realize I have no freedoms left.

Anyway, I originally just wanted to see how people felt about it but felt the need to reply to responses.

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