Originally Posted by Northumbrian:
I agree with SF.

Just a couple of other points - today's Telegraph reports that this years wheat crop is one of the worst in recent years as a result of cool weather which has stunted growth coupled to the fact that the excess rain has prevented the crop from being harvested - just 15% harvested when usually 50% would have been by now - the rest may be left to rot in the fields. If you believe in climate change [what ever the cause] surely this is an example of its adverse effect on food production - and there is no reason presently to believe the climate will stabilize. This bodes ill for the future.

The incredibly high density of population in England must be under threat of starvation if the nation is to stand alone simply because we cannot pay our way in the world. What exceptional products and services does the nation supply to accumulate foreign currency to buy our shortfall in food? Bear in mind the world is almost certainly heading for a recession. These are not normal times.
[Rep]

Originally Posted by Millennium3:
Just a couple of other points - today's Telegraph reports that this years wheat crop is one of the worst in recent years as a result of cool weather which has stunted growth coupled to the fact that the excess rain has prevented the crop from being harvested - just 15% harvested when usually 50% would have been by now - the rest may be left to rot in the fields. If you believe in climate change [what ever the cause] surely this is an example of its adverse effect on food production - and there is no reason presently to believe the climate will stabilize. This bodes ill for the future.

The incredibly high density of population in England must be under threat of starvation if the nation is to stand alone simply because we cannot pay our way in the world. What exceptional products and services does the nation supply to accumulate foreign currency to buy our shortfall in food? Bear in mind the world is almost certainly heading for a recession. These are not normal times.

You make some powerful points Millennium3. After more than a decade of New Labour, we certainly seem set to reap the whirlwind.

I guess a wartime mentality must be adopted in which the decline in food production in Great Britain must first be halted and put into reverse. Existing patterns of food consumption must be modified to minimise imports and thus our dependence on other countries.

A similar approach must be adopted about energy. Not only must we reduce consumption by means of better insulation, for example, but we must take control of our own energy production with the aim of reducing our dependence on other countries.

The problem is that the general populace are not ready for such measures, and they need to be 'got ready'! I have grave doubts that Brown [or, indeed, any of the current Government or the Commons itself] has the required qualities.

In so many ways, we have been rendered defenceless and at the mercy of other countries for supplies etc, and those in authority basically are hoping for something better to turn up.


------------------------------
[Rep]

I have the experience of living in a country where staple crop production like grains is constantly affected by capricious (and often vicious) weather patterns. Either no rain (and I mean nary a drop for months) or a great gush of the stuff that rots the crop or washes it away. There are also hail storms which are erratic and unexpected and ruin promising crops from grain to fruit overnight. The devastation is felt all the way through to the wine industry here, which is one of the most prolific and lucrative farming industries. Beef production suffers equally from periodic severe droughts. There are also locust plagues, blights and labour problems. Farming is difficult and unpredictable everywhere in the world and especially so in Africa.

But ... through all the bad years, the good years, the hysterically good years and the dark years when it seemed that god had forgotten their world, people survived. Africa is a continent of continuous struggle to put food on the table from the seed on the land to the finished product in a cereal box or loaf of bread. Yet, we are still here, the farmers are still at it and the weather has changed again. That's life on this planet. Nothing lasts forever and everything is forgotten in a hundred years, as my mother was fond of saying.

When there are severe droughts or floods and crops are ruined you have to import grain. It raises the price of staple foods. You just have to pay or go without. When the herds are struck down you have to import meat, again raising the price. You have to pay or go without. These times are the great testing phases of a nation's strength and, yes, they separate the survivors from those who will suffer badly. Nature has this process built into her system, but no one compares human existence to the existence of animals and plants in nature any more because we have become too dependent on a way of life that is always to hand because certain products are always to hand. This can cause people who are accustomed to certain things to become nervous and depressed when these things look like they may run out, or become unreachably expensive.

I detest the social welfare system for this reason as it breeds large quantities of people who do not understand the survival process and who do not actually believe in any kind of Darwinian selection process in terms of survival. The social welfare system as it exists today in the west is going to be responsible for finishing off the west's youth because so many of them know nothing else and are now expected to share what little they may have in the future with hordes of unnecessary unskilled immigrants. This is the "gift" of successive governments in Britain. It is a potentially tragic scenario designed by inept ideologues who allowed their rigid ideas about society and survival to extend to the people who voted them into power and kept doing so in the hope and belief that Labour meant no more suffering for the working class.

But Socialism ultimately does to people what rampant super capitalism does to them. It serves only the interests of the cream of the crop on top of the system and allows the underdog to slip further down the survival ladder until disaster strikes in the form of a challenge, and those who most fervently believed in the social welfare system are plunged into a void by the system itself shutting down on its most vulnerable dependents.

I have heard from people living in Australia who emigrated there from South Africa that they find they cannot work with many Australians simply because many Australians will no longer work. That British gift of the social welfare system again, threatening Australia's European settler descendants with that recalcitrant anti-middle class belief system that is going to serve to kill this group off in favour of more hard working and risk taking immigrants from China, and Indonesia (and South Africa). One of these South African Australians told us he is now working with Greeks there in desperation because he cannot get any Australians to listen to him, work, or play by the rules of the working world. Take note, this is how immigrants take over seemingly advanced adopted countries - the natives grow complacent, lazy and abusive and the immigrants move gratefully into the spaces vacated by their indolent and recalcitrant brothers. It is going to happen in Britain and as far as I have heard, is happening already in some places. So the Marxist formula for "transformation" is well entrenched by the system they insist is so good for the people they insist they are helping. In truth, socialism is cutting off the native people's lifeline and in so doing destroying their future.

A good idea before you worry about what the weather is going to do to you is get rid of Labour. Labour makes climate change look like a walk in the park. The unnecessary excess population that will create immense difficulties once the economy is hit from all sides by climate change, economic slump, the massive industrial challenge from the east and general cultural erosion, will loom in the pathway of escape from the things.

On the other hand, and this is something we have all learned here in the old former colonies, as one door closes another opens. It starts by opening just a crack, so you need to get your foot in it firmly or you will not be able to avail yourself of the opportunity once the herd smells the fresh air streaming through the escape route and starts a stampede.

Every old crumbling system has in its nature the seeds of new civilizations. If you are able to look for them (because you believe they are there) then you will begin to pick them out among the debris and collapsing edifices around you. If you can concentrate on the task and not be sidetracked by the whinnying sound of the liberals and the vicious hissing of steam escaping from the clenched jaws of the Labour machine as it falls like a terrible monolith at last and is forced to die so a new machine can take its place, you will find what you need to make a start.

For this task you need new ideas, new political parties, new tools and some important ancient wisdom. These will be very hard times for everyone in the old west, from America to the ancient roots of western Europe. A crash is coming and this time when they say "it's only temporary" they are lying like they have never lied before. They can't paper over these cracks or put little band-aid plasters on scratches from skirmishes with what they have persisted in calling "the fash". The imaginary "fash" are nothing in comparison with the real industrial and economic monsters waiting to strike and conquer. And they will, it's only a matter of time.

Where I am we survive by the skin of our teeth, often with no medical aid, no pensions, no investments and blind faith in the prospect of one or two of those seeds, that we will not see and grasp if we dare to stop looking for them or believing in them. I don't know if you will get to this level of survival or if you will somehow manage to avoid it, but one thing is for certain, a certain proportion of people in Britain will be hard hit and go down under the strain of the collapsing social welfare system.

Start planning your escape route from disaster now. Ignore the querulous voices of doom. They only complicate matters and make you scared. And you can get very very afraid of a future with big gaping dark spaces in it. Ignore the politicians who say "it's only temporary". They are lying. It's temporary for them. They are rich and will be negotiating their futures with the very thing that is going to flatten all of you.

There will be food, but it will be expensive. There will be work but it will be uncomfortable. Who do you think will face this challenge? The soft, comfort zone druggies, teenage alcoholics and fifteen year old pregnant chavs, or the wily immigrants who know how to do without almost every modern convenience and live to thrive and reproduce? The immigrants who really think your system of liberalism and huggy love, of universal brotherhood and Shangri-la is utter bunk. They know it's bunk because they have lived the other side of life and understand far better the pain of loss and the futility of eventlessness. They have starved and suffered and seen the dark side of humanity. Almost every western soft touch welfare system citizen knows absolutely nothing of this. They just keep on believing in the lies of their politicians and, amazingly, keep on supporting their politician's wars. All these serve to do is kill off more of the people threatened by the changes in the first place.

It's not the immigrant's fault, it's the fault of the system that tries to utilize him to effect its own unrealistic ideology. When things go wrong the politicians and the ideologues pack up, sell their many properties to the now wealthy newcomers and leave town. They cannot hear the shouts of "traitor" from the masses they promised to help. They are too far away to hear anything but the roaring of the next gravy train as it pulls into their station on time to take them away from the disaster area they engineered.

They may even have the cheek to wave to you all as they speed away into the distance.

Peak politics is what we all have to watch out for. Peak politics has arrived and we have to gather as many of those seeds among the debris that we can get into our pockets so we can use them to build a new western world. No one is going to do it for us. The new eastern world is where it's all at and where it will be for the foreseeable future. Times and politics have changed. The east doesn't do liberalism or welfare. The east does money and super capitalism has moved premises. Say goodbye to all the old "Illuminati". There will be a new set and they will not look like us, if they ever did. It's time to stop worrying about things that do not exist as threats and start worrying about the things that do. But they are only threats because many of us are not prepared or equipped to deal with them.

To deal with them we need to change and to change we need to survive peak politics and inherit a new era of western civilization. Africa is dying. Africa will be recolonised by the east and saved from certain disaster by big money and new autocrats. Africa has no choice but to accept their offers.

Take a lesson from Africa. She didn't do anything about those seeds when she had the chance after a small window of opportunity opened between colonial occupations. Now she will have a new set of overlords.

If the west doesn't want the same set of overlords it had better change fast or its mournful outdated crying about human rights and its universal love culture will be drowned in a flood of the complete opposite.

New parties are the way to go, but they need to jettison their lunatic fringes and start shaping up to do a very difficult job. Allowing everyone with a psychotic disorder to run rampant across the open frontier is asking for trouble. People from the more powerful economies will see this and think the west has gone off its head and that the time is right for some serious conquest, starting with the purchase of the ancient institutions and icons and ending with their gift back as possessions of new industrial paymasters.

People can jeer all they like, they can gesticulate and laugh and call names into the gathering gloom. It won't help. The end is wrapped up in a new beginning, but - that new beginning is the possession and conquest booty of whoever is capable of gathering those seeds that fall but once from the dying bloom of a once great civilization.
[Rep]

SF the issue that interests me is whether the English parties should support breaking the Union. I agree being paid not to work is not good for the State or the individual, however it is important to keep this in prospective. South Africa has a population of 101/sq.m, China [whose population will eat anything that moves and are more or less self sufficient in food] 363, England 976. Presently the UK with a density of 637 can only feed 17m of its 60m population. I suggest it would be very foolish indeed for any Party to support England going it alone in such circumstances.
[Rep]

Originally Posted by Millennium3:
SF the issue that interests me is whether the English parties should support breaking the Union. I agree being paid not to work is not good for the State or the individual, however it is important to keep this in prospective. South Africa has a population of 101/sq.m, China [whose population will eat anything that moves and are more or less self sufficient in food] 363, England 976. Presently the UK with a density of 637 can only feed 17m of its 60m population. I suggest it would be very foolish indeed for any Party to support England going it alone in such circumstances.

I agree that breaking the Union as such, in other words, shattering a long held unit of what has for a long time been a band of brothers in arms, would and will be a very psychologically harrowing experience for some and a distressful experience for others. That flag, those colours, those battles and struggles all won and lost in so many theatres of war by so many loyal fighters and those medals won for the courage that so inspires every nation to unite and fight adversity and evil are what will cause people to want to keep the union as it is.

But because the Union as it is may break up this doesn't mean that another unifying entity cannot take its place that will cater for and be kinder to, the various groups who have evolved independent status. That brotherhood will still be there, that kindred spirit of the folk of the Isles may even be made stronger by the threats from a new eastern and middle eastern dominated world. I don't think independence will mean people will starve. I think that a more workable solution could be found to the prospect of peak food by paying attention to long neglected trouble spots and issues that governments loyal to some idea of a Union never took personal interest in. They have always just waved that beloved flag in people's faces and hoped they would forget about the problems beneath the temporary warm glow.

Often systems that have aged and become redundant, systems that no longer deliver real benefits to people, just go on and on by dint of this wheeling out of the flag wavers and various sporting triumphs now and again. The Olympics in London! Wow! Lucky, eh! Quick, buy flags and wave like mad and feel all patriotic. Even though the Olympics will probably finish off London for good. All these things do is create more problems and erect hideous pigeon hole housing developments from the post Olympic accommodation boom. (I won't mention the Millennium Dome, it's too horrible to contemplate let alone look at now that the flush of enthusiasm for a new age has turned into a nightmare vision and the thing sits there like a crashed alien spacecraft. An ugly crashed alien spacecraft.)

It's time for heroes of all kinds. A time for both new ideas and old time tested remedies. Challenges crowd the horizons of both young and old. Sometimes it's better to meet these and solve problems by means of smaller more efficient democratic groups than large unwieldy groups of disconnected individuals who have largely lost the plot.

New technologies wait to be applied in Britain. Scotland will forge ahead with these, I am convinced. If independence isn't achieved for England Scotland will grab manufacturing and academic opportunities by dint of its enhanced power in the Union. England will suffer. Wales will suffer anyway as Wales is still floundering in post war socialism. But England has the wherewithal to break free and go as far and as fast as she is able, for once. She is a match for Scotland but only if she is free of her ancient obligations and the terrible burdens of her fee paying allegiances to various unnecessary cash gobbling enterprises.

I'd love to see England break free and fly as high and as far as she can. I'd like to think she will be able to accomplish this by means of all those descendants of the terrible wars that devastated the populations of all three nations.

When Andrew Constantine says he would like to see England set alight with the fire of this enthusiasm to be great and free I share it 100% and believe that she deserves a chance, as does Scotland and any other country that desires to make its mark as a liberated nation state. I can't help it. I'm just not a socialist. People like me think differently from those who like to lean on others and live in hierarchies of need. I just personally prefer the nation state structure and the kind of individual it nurtures and the sort of productivity and prosperity and cultural florescence this invariably brings with it. One only has to look at the stunning beauty of Tibet and its unique culture to know that their wish to be free of mainland China is a just cause. They will never be free of a certain dependence on products and certain services and on trade with the outside world, but to stay Tibetan they need to be free to govern themselves.

To stay English England needs to do the same. Or she may as well join the EU and vanish into a serfdom in a twenty-first century feudal Empire.
[Rep]

But M3, the break up of the Union is happening anyway. Scotlands is a new natiion and we are being unfairly made to finance that while they have a say in our Parliament on our destiny. What choice have we? If things are as bleak as you intimate, the immigrants in this country are going to come under great pressure not to say attack.
[Rep]

Originally Posted by david H:
But M3, the break up of the Union is happening anyway. Scotlands is a new natiion and we are being unfairly made to finance that while they have a say in our Parliament on our destiny. What choice have we? If things are as bleak as you intimate, the immigrants in this country are going to come under great pressure not to say attack.

I don't know that the majority of Scots want a split - the last figures I saw it was not the case.

This is a worst case scenario - but it cannot be ignored.

As far as immigrants are concerned, I think that they should be warned that if they have retained dual citizenship they would be well advise to consider their position as the government will feed those whose families have lived here for the longest first if there is not enough food - on the bases they have no where else to go.
[Rep]

Originally Posted by SilverFalcon:

I detest the social welfare system for this reason as it breeds large quantities of people who do not understand the survival process and who do not actually believe in any kind of Darwinian selection process in terms of survival. The social welfare system as it exists today in the west is going to be responsible for finishing off the west's youth because so many of them know nothing else and are now expected to share what little they may have in the future with hordes of unnecessary unskilled immigrants. This is the "gift" of successive governments in Britain. It is a potentially tragic scenario designed by inept ideologues who allowed their rigid ideas about society and survival to extend to the people who voted them into power and kept doing so in the hope and belief that Labour meant no more suffering for the working class.

I agree. I think that the Welfare State is now abused to such an extent that people expect everything to be given to them. The Welfare State should only be a safety net for the sick, elderly and vunerable. It is now possible to go through your whole life never having to work, yet still have a good standard of living.

When a state hands out money to healthy, able-bodied but lazy people it is creating an underclass of people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Add to this an education system which teaches them nothing about their own history and culture and a political class which despises everything about England and you have indeed planted the seeds of the coming anarchy.
[Rep]

Originally Posted by moe:
I agree. I think that the Welfare State is now abused to such an extent that people expect everything to be given to them. The Welfare State should only be a safety net for the sick, elderly and vunerable. It is now possible to go through your whole life never having to work, yet still have a good standard of living.

When a state hands out money to healthy, able-bodied but lazy people it is creating an underclass of people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Add to this an education system which teaches them nothing about their own history and culture and a political class which despises everything about England and you have indeed planted the seeds of the coming anarchy.

Which leads to a kind of passive genocide of the people by replacement and displacement and finally, miscegenation (the final nail in any people's coffin). This has nothing to do with Hollywood style politically correct "racism", it is a serious threat to all of earth's native peoples and to the biodiversity of the planet. But you can't tell that to groups with religious ideology who are only concerned with getting into some paradisal realm after death by behaving strangely in this one. Secular Christians, new age liberals, Evangelists, star gazing fantasists - all the result of an idea taking precedence over experience. It has sent people to oblivion since time began and it doesn't seem to be about to stop doing so. America is pouring itself down the drain and going with a silly grin on its face, a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other. They are, I would presume, "bound for glory". A sad disintegration of their intelligence and potential and a sure fire recipe for their undoing. But they'd rather go berserk for Jesus than live by common sense.

When a far older and more experienced civilization admits to a special relationship with an infant, and in many ways infantile, civilization, then you are bound not for glory, but for trouble.

It isn't funny any more. It isn't clever. It isn't a great topic for dinner parties. It's a fact, and its progress is relentless across the western world.

It is easy to prevent this if people are willing to stop allowing the continuous propaganda to reach them. The individual can choose to say "no thanks" and tune out. It will mean you get a few funny looks from your still afflicted neighbours and members of your family may find you embarrassing because you refuse to conform, etc. But every time you put your hands over your ears and go "la-la-la-la" when someone tries to convince you to throw yourself and your civilization away, you'll be putting a few more coins in the fountain of your ultimate renewal. Humanity hasn't ever managed to do this effectively. It seemed as though the ancient Greeks and Romans might have had a chance, but Socrates went down because he questioned religious dogma and the Roman Emperor consulted the entrails of beasts to divine the future. Galileo wasn't free to see the earth as a satellite of the sun. Da Vinci veiled his brilliance by constructing amusing toys for the powers that be, who were all subjects of their own myopia. The day intelligence is free to go its own way, our world will become a different place and our species will relinquish the last of its primitive strangleholds on our future, and on every beast and bird and innocent child destined for victimhood under the present circumstances.

Blindness can be bad, but it can be cured by evolutionary deafness. :-)
[Rep]

Originally Posted by david H:
But M3, the break up of the Union is happening anyway. Scotlands is a new natiion and we are being unfairly made to finance that while they have a say in our Parliament on our destiny. What choice have we? If things are as bleak as you intimate, the immigrants in this country are going to come under great pressure not to say attack.

In relation to the thread topic for Debate whats to be done and David H post above.I disgree the Break up of the Union is not happening thats your opinion.Whats to be done pulling together as the UK have done before and will contiue to pull together in the hard times ahead ie the recestion thats going to hit us we will tackle on a UK wide axis.And come through the other side stronger for it like we have done so many times before.:-)
[Rep]