Originally Posted by BonnieDundee:
The South Ossetians are not part of Russia, they simply want indepedence.

But they are granting S. Ossetians Russian citizenship.
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Originally Posted by BonnieDundee:
Yes those damn South Ossetians are going to take over the world once they have gained their independence.

I was thinking more about the Russians.

YCHTT might as well ignore these link since most are from the 'meedja', but for the rest of you, here's why the West needs a stronger response to this "crisis":

Khaleej Times Online - Russia's neighbours put on edge by war threat

Georgia: Russia demands to be regarded as number one - Telegraph

EU Referendum: The EU moves at its usual speed

EDIT: YCHTT - Russia's military capability does not really worry me. They know that if they tried a nuclear attack we could easily reduce Moscow and St. Petersburg to dust. They also know that their conventional equipment is massively outmoded and outdated.
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Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth:
Georgia attacked Russia and Russia are acting out of self defence.

So stop talking complete **** ! :-)

Georgia did not attack Russia. South Ossetia is part of Georgia, though it has effectively declared UDI. Russia is intervening in the conflict but Russia itself was not attacked.

Incidentally, not one single country in the world - not even Russia - recognises South Ossetia's claim to independence. That may be right or wrong but the fact remains that it is legally a province of Georgia.
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BD, The Ossets of South Ossetia are not distinct from the North Ossetians or any other Ossets. Many of the original inhabitants of South Ossetia, however, are ethnically Georgian and could call themselves South Ossetians in the same way that a Yorkshireman of Asian origin is still a Yorkshireman if born and bred there.

I've tried to explain, but it's pointless, that many countries in the world are not homogenous and that there is intermingling all over the place. I don't remember when South Ossetia was even given that name. It might be more recent than the West Bank, say, that is a name conjured up within living memory. The area was part of historic Georgia at the time of Russian annexation at the beginning of the 19th century. Khakheti has a far better claim to independence, but they want to remain Georgian.
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Originally Posted by Unionist:
Georgia did not attack Russia. South Ossetia is part of Georgia, though it has effectively declared UDI. Russia is intervening in the conflict but Russia itself was not attacked.

MOSCOW, Aug 8 (Reuters) - Russian peacekeepers are waging a "fierce" battle with Georgian forces in South Ossetia and have suffered 12 dead and 150 wounded, the peacekeeping forces were quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

"Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali," a representative of the Russian force was quoted as saying by Interfax."

Russia peacekeepers in "fierce" battle - agencies | Reuters

Or what about this one:

Georgia: In 'state of war' over South Ossetia - Yahoo! News

Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.

Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded in South Ossetia, accusing Georgian troops of killing and wounding Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. The allegations couldn't be independently confirmed.

Originally Posted by Unionist:
Incidentally, not one single country in the world - not even Russia - recognises South Ossetia's claim to independence. That may be right or wrong but the fact remains that it is legally a province of Georgia.

In 1992, Georgia was forced to accept a ceasefire to avoid a large scale confrontation with Russia. The government of Georgia and South Ossetian separatists reached an agreement to avoid the use of force against one another, and Georgia pledged not to impose sanctions against South Ossetia.

A peacekeeping force of Ossetians, Russians and Georgians was established at the time. And late in 1992 the OSCE set up a mission in Georgia to monitor the peacekeeping operation.

From then, until mid-2004, South Ossetia was generally peaceful.

In June 2004, tensions began to rise as the Georgian authorities strengthened their efforts against smuggling in the region. Hostage takings, shootouts and occasional bombings left dozens dead and wounded.

A ceasefire deal was reached on August 13, but it has been repeatedly violated.

Tensions in the region soared in 2008 and outbreaks of violence became increasingly frequent in the border area.

Georgia said it was an internal affair as the breakaway republic had never been recognized internationally.

The Georgian side repeatedly insisted the conflict could be resolved without outside interference.

However, early on August 8 Georgia launched a massive military offensive to take control of the republic.

So what you're effectively saying Unionist is that Georgia have killed over 2000 civilians in the "legal province of Georgia" despite their agreement to avoid the use of force in the region and the deployment of Georgian/Russian/Ossetians (and U.N as I understand it) peacekeepers ?

Fair enough - I can believe that.

Whichever way you spin it, Georgia launched the miltary offensive killing Russian peacekeepers.

Is that Russia ?

Even if you argue no (when you know it's really yes), then it seems rather strange Georgia would kill so many of it's own(by "legality" status) civilians. :-)
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The Russians have killed their own share of civilians in Georgia and have attacked non-military targets - for starters they've been trying to bomb the oil pipeline, without much success.

Russian "peacekeepers" - yes, I'm sure they didn't cause any trouble whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by Westcountryman:
YCHTT might as well ignore these link since most are from the 'meedja', but for the rest of you, here's why the West needs a stronger response to this "crisis"

I will ignore the spin and lies of the mainstream media that seek to spin us into believing Russia is the aggressor when clearly and unarguably it is Georgia(with U.S support) that have instigated the crisis.

The fact that even Bush has said the response is "disproportionate"(i.e. they were right to retaliate but not "too much") shows the case for western aggresion now is unjustified and simply further propaganda to make Russia look like the initiator of the conflict.

Originally Posted by Westcountryman:
They know that if they tried a nuclear attack we could easily reduce Moscow and St. Petersburg to dust.

Oh that's fine then....... :-)

Putting the fact that you're a Lib-Dem and pro-EU, it's comments like this that show that no-one should listen to a word you say.

This is not Iraq(with WMD's :-)) we're talking about here.

This is the U.S.S.R ! :-)

And they've got over 2000 nukes ! :-)

Isn't it ironic that supposedly Iraq can launch WMD's within a few minutes resulting in a "mushroom cloud" yet at the same time we're meant to believe from WCM that 2000 nuclear warheads from a miltary world giant like the Soviet Union are nothing to worry about :-) :-) :-) :-)

Yep that's right people - all those countries with nuclear warheads(including apparently Iran :-)) are absolutely nothing to worry yet we face a national security threat from Afghanistan, Al-CIA-da and Iran :-):-):-)

As your signature says WCM "I'm playing traitor today" except that you're not playing at all. Keeping waving your EU flag....

Why don't you stand up for your country and their people instead of peddling your mainstream media propaganda, supporting more western "intervention" when the west were the ones who started the conflict ? :-)

And what does "Uber" member mean ?

Maybe something to do with this..... ?


Last call for alcohol.
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.

I am Emperor Ronald Reagan
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president

Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
Ni*ger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face

You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Alexander Haig is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning........

Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece

You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws

Die on our brand new poison gas
El Salvador or Afghanistan
Making money for President Reagan
And all the friends of President Reagan

California Uber alles
Uber alles California
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This is an e-mail I have just received from a Georgian friend. Several of us wrote to check he was okay and he has copied us into a group e-mail. I'd vouch for the man's honesty as I have worked with him in both Georgia and Armenia.

Originally Posted by :
My Dear Friends,



Thank you very much for your emails. I arrived from the Caucasus Mountains yesterday evening not having the clear idea about Russian Aggression. I was in mtatusheti on the mountain bordering with chechnia and didnʼt have access to radio, tv and phones. Gori, Poti, Zugdidi, Kareli, suberbs of Dedoplistkaro and Batumi were bombed by Russian military airplanes. For the time being towns: Zugdidi and Gori are controlled by Russian troops that were brought from Chechnya. Georgians shot down 19 Russian military airplanes. Last night we had planes flying over Tbilisi and Kakheti. Russian mass media is misleading the Russian society saying that Georgians are bombing south osetia but in reality Russian airplanes are bombing osetian territories by themselves. Georgians know that no one benefits from the war, but on the other hand each Georgian is ready to fight Russians back. In these very minutes Georgia is in war with Russia.

My best friends being in reserve troops were sent to Gori and hardly survived. Being a military reserve officer by myself I contacted my base today though my call was delayed and I donʼt know when they call me back. Many Georgians are criticizing international organizations for being passive. They all talk while people are dying and bombing Georgian cities and villages. Things are changing extremely fast and it gets worse every minute.

I make no apologies for his English, it is better than many posters here and he is using his 4th language (Georgian, Russian, French , English).
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Originally Posted by libertylover:
The reason Russia keeps bombing, even though Georgia has asked for a cease fire,
is because Russia is trying to destroy the pipeline. They keep missing.

The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline (sometimes abbreviated as BTC pipeline) is a crude oil pipeline that covers 1,768 kilometres (1,099 mi) from the Azeri-Chirag-Guneshli oil field in the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean Sea. It connects Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan; Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia; and Ceyhan, a port on the south-eastern Mediterranean coast of Turkey, hence its name. It is the second longest oil pipeline in the world after the Druzhba pipeline. The first oil that was pumped from the Baku end of the pipeline on May 10, 2005 reached Ceyhan on May 28, 2006.[1]

Here's the owners of the BTC pipeline.

BP (United Kingdom): 30.1%
State Oil Company of Azerbaijan (SOCAR) (Azerbaijan): 25.00%
Chevron (USA): 8.90%
StatoilHydro (Norway): 8.71%
Türkiye Petrolleri Anonim Ortaklığı (TPAO) (Turkey): 6.53%
Eni/Agip (Italy): 5.00%
Total (France): 5.0%
Itochu (Japan): 3.4%
Inpex (Japan): 2.50%
ConocoPhillips (USA): 2.50%
Hess Corporation (USA) 2.36%

Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you seriously believe that the Russian airforce could not destroy that pipeline if they wanted to? They have total air superiority and a hell of a lot of really big bombs

Jesus they could go and dig it up and redirect it straight into the Kremlin for a giggle if they wanted.
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Aardvark,

So to be clear you "wrote" to him and he e-mailed you back having arrived back from the Caucasus Mountains ? Why does he not say where he is now ?

It's suprising he didn't even leave any ending/goodbye to this e-mail after he started the e-mail "My dear friends".... ?

Wouldn't he have said "Take care" or something rather than just stopping at the end without any goodbye ?

There's also something suspicious about the quality of his written English if it's 4th language as you claim, especially if he knows words such as "territories", "international organizations" and "For the time being"...... !!!

Personally I doubt someone with English as their 4th foreign language would know that last expression as it sounds very "English" but I may be wrong.....

But he can spell all these words correctly and form sentences in this way yet he cannot form a sentence correctly when he says "Georgia is in war with Russia." ?!!!

It looks quite suspicious to say the least.

Are you trying to pull a fast one here Aardvark ?

What's his name and e-mail address ?

Even if this is real, "South Ossetia" is not the same as "Ossettian territories", and does not prevent the fact that South Ossetia came under sneak attack from Georgian troops with U.S backing, killling thousands of civilians.
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