Georgia attack Russia

Originally Posted by Westcountryman:
I was thinking more about the Russians.

YCHTT might as well ignore these link since most are from the 'meedja', but for the rest of you, here's why the West needs a stronger response to this "crisis":

Khaleej Times Online - Russia's neighbours put on edge by war threat

Georgia: Russia demands to be regarded as number one - Telegraph

EU Referendum: The EU moves at its usual speed

EDIT: YCHTT - Russia's military capability does not really worry me. They know that if they tried a nuclear attack we could easily reduce Moscow and St. Petersburg to dust. They also know that their conventional equipment is massively outmoded and outdated.

Well Russia is hypocritical and I don't much like its interference, but then again the West doesn't really have the moral highground here. But that doesn't mean South Ossetia should not decide its own future.

[Rep]

There are 70000 Ossets in South Ossetia; 14000 Georgians remain as many were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s. The 'capital city' has a population of 35000. There is no international airport, and never will be for such a small town. There is one road that doesn't lead into Georgia - the tunnel through the mountains to North Ossetia.

There was a referendum with a '95%' turnout and '99%' support for independence. This might appear suspicious as the Georgians and the Osset opposition boycotted the poll. How do you get a 95% turnout when the Georgians are 17% of the population and the Osset opposition are more than one man and his dog? It looks remarkably like one of Hitler's plebiscites. If anybody understands elections they will know that such turnouts are the result of the manipulation of the electoral roll/voter's list. I could tell you how to rig an election and have seen many that have been fixed; the region is notorious for such things.

YCHTT, The Russians have not suffered more than a few military casualties, not nice, but hardly suffering of a popualtion of 90 million Russians; more people died on the roads in Russia at the time of the invasion. They accept 2% fatalities on exercise. The Ossets, if their figures are to be believed, and they sound improbably high, have indeed suffered, but they had been taking pot shots at the Georgians for several weeks leading up to the Georgian attempt to re-establish soveignty.

The idea that a small country like Georgia is bullying Russia is absurd and flies in the face of all known facts in the region. Georgia was annexed by Russia in 1801. It gained independence after 1918 and was annexed again, with massive suffering and murder, by the Soviets. Although Stalin was a Georgian from Gori he caused massive destruction of religious, historic and cultural buildings with the aid of the Russians etc.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by :
There are 70000 Ossets in South Ossetia; 14000 Georgians remain as many were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s. The 'capital city' has a population of 35000. There is no international airport, and never will be for such a small town. There is one road that doesn't lead into Georgia - the tunnel through the mountains to North Ossetia.

There was a referendum with a '95%' turnout and '99%' support for independence. This might appear suspicious as the Georgians and the Osset opposition boycotted the poll. How do you get a 95% turnout when the Georgians are 17% of the population and the Osset opposition are more than one man and his dog? It looks remarkably like one of Hitler's plebiscites. If anybody understands elections they will know that such turnouts are the result of the manipulation of the electoral roll/voter's list. I could tell you how to rig an election and have seen many that have been fixed; the region is notorious for such things.

Interesting but it still doesn't change much. I suppose the Protestant population of Ireland should of meant the whole of it remained British :-).

[Rep]

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
Georgia is pro-EU and pro-NATO. Saakashvili is a US educated lawyer. Most Georgians I met, and I have lived there and worked there for a few weeks, are on our side. They expect us to be on there side It will be a hard call.

That's the point. A hard call for us, but a possible hard rock for them!

[Rep]

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee:
If that is true it is unfortunate. I certainly don't agree with the Russian intervention even if I support South Ossetian independence.

Then how else would they gain independence?

[Rep]

Read the truth Pravda.Ru: Russian news and analysis

Not Yankee hypocracy.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
There was a referendum with a '95%' turnout and '99%' support for independence. This might appear suspicious as the Georgians and the Osset opposition boycotted the poll. How do you get a 95% turnout when the Georgians are 17% of the population and the Osset opposition are more than one man and his dog? It looks remarkably like one of Hitler's plebiscites. If anybody understands elections they will know that such turnouts are the result of the manipulation of the electoral roll/voter's list. I could tell you how to rig an election and have seen many that have been fixed; the region is notorious for such things.

That's interesting - I must admit I've heard others too(including Alex Jones) say the elections were rigged but haven't looked at it myself, though if you read the article I posted - "Flashback: CIA Aided Georgia�s �Rose Revolution� it seems there may have been CIA involvement, and it claims the death of the then president was suspicious too.

See: the thread for the article I posted and Zurab Zhvania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"from what officials claimed was carbon monoxide poisoning, due to an inadequately ventilated gas heater" :-)

"However, Zhvania's family members have questioned the official version of the death, with Goga Zhvania having said that he was sure that his brother was assassinated. In March 2006 interview with the Washington Post Georgia's ex-president Eduard Shevardnadze also said that he believed Zhvania was murdered"

Anyway to get back to your points Aardvark.....

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
YCHTT, The Russians have not suffered more than a few military casualties, not nice, but hardly suffering of a popualtion of 90 million Russians; more people died on the roads in Russia at the time of the invasion. They accept 2% fatalities on exercise.

Well I take your point, but only slightly.
People are still people and are all equal outside of the geopolitical spectrum.
I don't think it's very fair to compare the number dead to the size of the population or in % terms

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
The Ossets, if their figures are to be believed, and they sound improbably high, have indeed suffered

Which figure are you referring to ? 2000 ? I heard that figure quoted in The Financial Times today.
I have heard other unconfirmed sources say it is more in the region of 4000 or possibly more, but it's speculation until we know for sure.

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
but they had been taking pot shots at the Georgians for several weeks leading up to the Georgian attempt to re-establish soveignty.

I've heard unconfimed reports that the georgians were taking pot shots at the Russians in the build up. But again, in conflict, it's often difficult to know who fired the first shot and it's speculation again.

Originally Posted by Aardvark:
The idea that a small country like Georgia is bullying Russia is absurd and flies in the face of all known facts in the region. Georgia was annexed by Russia in 1801. It gained independence after 1918 and was annexed again, with massive suffering and murder, by the Soviets. Although Stalin was a Georgian from Gori he caused massive destruction of religious, historic and cultural buildings with the aid of the Russians etc.

[/quote]

Again I'm just basing it on the fact that the Georgians launched a sneak attack - that is pretty cowardly and bullyish behaviour in my opinion.
Russia maybe did over-react(rightly or wrongly) to it however.

[Rep]