Originally Posted by Seasider:
The baby is wearing a hat that says 'I love Al Qaeda'
This little baby also looks frightened as whatever the demo was about it was no place for a baby who could only ever have been frightened by the crowd.

OK. Seems the baby picture originates from Jihad Watch (guess how unbiased they are from their name) who link to an article in the Sun who mention that:

Originally Posted by :
A baby girl even had “I Love al-Qaeda” on her bonnet.

Funny thing though. Why is it that the Sun does not have the picture that Jihad Watch has? Where did Jihad Watch get the picture if not from the Sun? If the Sun really had that picture, why didn't they publish it themselves? Questions questions...
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Hello pcif.If i went to live overseas to another country,1 would make efforts to learn the language,behave myself ,and try try to integrate myself into their way of life.This does not happen in the uk.In some schools ,you can have children from up to one hundred different languages.What good is that. I notice you were in the lib dems. I wonder why?.Maybe its because they try to attract the asian voter.In this country we allow people religous freedom,which is why we have mosques, synagogues,sikh temples etc. Maybe this is correct. This nation has bent over backwards to accomodate people from all over the world.Myself i have nothing against anyone.m My best freind is an anglo asian catholic, but i beleive its been massiveley over done. Has someone who can possibly trace his roots to this island for possibly 6 or 7 hundred years , i beleive that gives me the right to vote for WHO I LIKE.If that means The BNP then so be it. Many people would question you rights to chastise or campaign against the BNP. ISay no ,that is the freedom afforded to those luck enough to come to live here. I therefore beleive that you should therefore afford ME the same rights.
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Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Hello pcif.If i went to live overseas to another country,1 would make efforts to learn the language,behave myself ,and try try to integrate myself into their way of life.This does not happen in the uk.In some schools ,you can have children from up to one hundred different languages.What good is that. I notice you were in the lib dems. I wonder why?.Maybe its because they try to attract the asian voter.In this country we allow people religous freedom,which is why we have mosques, synagogues,sikh temples etc. Maybe this is correct. This nation has bent over backwards to accomodate people from all over the world.Myself i have nothing against anyone.m My best freind is an anglo asian catholic, but i beleive its been massiveley over done. Has someone who can possibly trace his roots to this island for possibly 6 or 7 hundred years , i beleive that gives me the right to vote for WHO I LIKE.If that means The BNP then so be it. Many people would question you rights to chastise or campaign against the BNP. ISay no ,that is the freedom afforded to those luck enough to come to live here. I therefore beleive that you should therefore afford ME the same rights.

And you'd be happy about your "best freind" being discriminated against in a BNP future? You would have more rights than him. Does that give you some kind of primitive power urge, ALFREDDER?
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Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Hello pcif.If i went to live overseas to another country,1 would make efforts to learn the language,behave myself ,and try try to integrate myself into their way of life.This does not happen in the uk.

At all? Are you asserting that absolutely no migrants coming into the UK make efforts to learn the language, behave and integrate? I would agree that many first generation immigrants had difficulty learning the language, but that does not mean that they did not behave. They no doubt were troubled by such groups as the National Front who didn't help in the 'integration'. Speaking of which, basic sociology will tell you that migrants to a country tend to cluster together for support, and that is what happened in the UK. Now though, the second and third generations are coming through, and guess what, they can speak English as well as anybody else and are as suffused in British culture.

Half of what the BNP might term 'non-indigenous' people in the UK were actually born here. You will find that many are driven by a serious work ethic instilled by parents who do not want their children to be treated as second class citizens in the way that they have been. The mantra is to become a doctor, become a solicitor, become a dentist, work hard and aspire to be better than us. That is my experience, you perhaps move in different circles from me.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
In some schools ,you can have children from up to one hundred different languages.What good is that.

None. Though I suspect you are exaggerating the language count, perhaps this figure includes different dialects? If you cite your original source for this information we can all be enlightened. I doubt that there is a high proportion of children born and raised in this country who get to school not knowing English. The difficulty is if a child is born and raised elsewhere and whose parents then come to the UK and enroll the child in school. In which case, there should be national guidelines on the best way to support such children.

This should become less of a problem as time goes on with the new compulsory Britishness tests for people wanting to become a UK citizen.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
I notice you were in the lib dems. I wonder why?.Maybe its because they try to attract the asian voter.

And what of it? You imply that is a bad thing. You also assume I'm asian when I've not actually mentioned my ancestral heritage. One can be Muslim regardless of where your family originated from.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
In this country we allow people religous freedom,which is why we have mosques, synagogues,sikh temples etc. Maybe this is correct. This nation has bent over backwards to accomodate people from all over the world.

You seem uncertain as to whether the UK should allow religious freedom. The right to freedom and expression of religion is enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Where you say this country has "bent over backwards" I see that it has simply fulfilled legal and moral obligations to citizens of the UK. You might see this as a flaw, I think it is a Good Thing.

Yes, this country has mosques, synagogues,sikh temples, and it also has churches. Should we not allow the construction of houses of worship that do not conform to the majority religion in this country?

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Myself i have nothing against anyone.m My best freind is an anglo asian catholic, but i beleive its been massiveley over done. Has someone who can possibly trace his roots to this island for possibly 6 or 7 hundred years , i beleive that gives me the right to vote for WHO I LIKE.

The fact that you can trace your roots back 6 or 7 hundred years is neither here nor there in the context of citizenship. A person who has been a citizen of the UK for 6 or 7 seconds has exactly the same rights as you. Would you want it any other way?

Immigration should be looked at, it is obviously a sore point, and I can see the point being made, people coming in should perhaps have a higher level of qualifications, or a certain amount of cash in their bank accounts, or a guaranteed permanent job offer. I just think that the BNP policy of shipping off 'non-indigenous' people is likely to economically cripple this country.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
If that means The BNP then so be it. Many people would question you rights to chastise or campaign against the BNP.

Well, whoever says I can't "chastise or campaign" against the BNP is being distinctly undemocratic. So far, I've used the Constitution, 2005 Manifesto and website to prove it is an undemocratic organisation attempting to deceive members into thinking it is fighting for democracy. I find that my logic has so far been unassailable (despite what The Bear may say) and without casting a single accusation of racism or fascism one can easily dissect the core of the BNP message and reveal it to be a duplicitous dichotomy.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
ISay no ,that is the freedom afforded to those luck enough to come to live here. I therefore beleive that you should therefore afford ME the same rights.

Me saying anything about the BNP does not stop you from voting for them if you so choose, does it? The right to vote is afforded to you by the state and I should say I'm not able to tamper with it without breaking the law in some form. Please vote for the BNP. Join them if you so wish. If you do so knowing full well that you are financially supporting a constitionally undemocratic organisation whose leaders are proven Nazi sympathisers, liars and holocaust deniers, well, that is your choice.
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It is indeed true that millions of people have come here ,worked hard and behaved themselves.But for you to say they were harrased by the National Front or other groups is slightly exagerated. At its height it had less than 20,000 members nationally ,so thats a bit of marxist propaganda to say the least. You place no value on the thoughts of the indigenous population ,who have lived here centuries. Where you fail is talking about citizenship,which after all is a piece of paper.This has freely been given out to MILLIONS,of people from all over the world.This is the reason why an odious organisation like the BNP is picking up votes.Ordinary people are objecting about NUMBERS ,not individuals. The lab lib con club will not talk about immigration , because they need the votes.The article about the school was true , i have no need to lie to you. It was a school in smethwick in the west midlands.We are now officially after Bangladesh and Holland the 3rd most densely crowded country in the world.That maybe ok to you ,but its not to me.I also base my views ,on what i read from MIGRATIONWATCH.Its so loveley in this country now that thousands are leaving weekly. Thats the legacy of the people in charge. Has for your ancestry , i have no need to hide mine i am ethnically english ,as far has that can be said,and very proud of it , i am neither a nazi or a fascist , just an ordinary chap. My knowledge of the far right probably goes back 40 years,so i take the usual racist word with a pinch of chalk my friend.Its just marxist liberal propaganda,to brainwash the public with,but hey they are finally waking up arent they.
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Originally Posted by alfred the great:
It is indeed true that millions of people have come here ,worked hard and behaved themselves.But for you to say they were harrased by the National Front or other groups is slightly exagerated. At its height it had less than 20,000 members nationally ,so thats a bit of marxist propaganda to say the least.

I'm not saying they were all harrased, just enough to ensure that they got the message. If a people are clearly not made welcome in the community, why would you expect them to try to 'integrate' into a community that plainly was threatened by their presence.

As a school child I feared "Blacks Vs Whites" turf wars, and I was very familiar with anti-immigrant feeling being stirred up the National Front. That is my personal experience of the NF, label it 'Marxist Propoganda' if you like, but that does not falsify my statements.

Is it your intention to say that immigrants to this country in the 60s/70s/80s felt no animosity from certain groups which might have led to them withdrawing into their own communities? Again, I put it to you that basic sociology is against this assertion.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
You place no value on the thoughts of the indigenous population ,who have lived here centuries.

This is incorrect. Read my previous post again. I'm pretty sure you will see that I said:-

Originally Posted by :
The fact that you can trace your roots back 6 or 7 hundred years is neither here nor there in the context of citizenship. A person who has been a citizen of the UK for 6 or 7 seconds has exactly the same rights as you. Would you want it any other way?

This means that I value the thoughts of the indigenous population equally as much as non-indigenous. I ask again (although the answer is obvious to me by now), would you want it any other way?

I think of it this way. If I buy shares in a company today this gives me equal rights as someone who bought shares in that company 10 years ago. The longer-standing shareholder cannot claim a bigger dividend per share simply because they held the shares for longer. Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Where you fail is talking about citizenship,which after all is a piece of paper.This has freely been given out to MILLIONS,of people from all over the world.This is the reason why an odious organisation like the BNP is picking up votes.Ordinary people are objecting about NUMBERS ,not individuals.

I do not understand the point you are making here. Is your point that there should not be such a thing as citizenship? If not, what should we replace it with? I agree, some people are objecting to numbers, and that is a valid economic and political point to make, but some people are also objecting on the basis of racial or religious grounds, and that is not a valid political point to make.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
The lab lib con club will not talk about immigration , because they need the votes.

Again, I do not understand your point here. Are you saying that if the lab lib con club talk about immigration, they will lose votes? Why? The fact is that the vast overwhelming majority of the UK population was born here... Why would they object to a public debate regarding immigration? Why would it lose votes for the main parties? Especially in a time of economic crises when people tend to turn to 'quick fixes' as might be posed by an organisation like the BNP. (Far from being a quick fix, the BNP would probably ensure economic suicide of the country). I'd welcome a debate if only to get the issue out in the open and finally get some closure on it.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
The article about the school was true , i have no need to lie to you. It was a school in smethwick in the west midlands.

I see. But what you previously said was this:

Originally Posted by :
In some schools ,you can have children from up to one hundred different languages

You have gone from saying "in some schools" to pointing out a single school in the UK in which this may be the case. Why exaggerate? Additionally, having re-read what you said, I'm actually not bothered how many languages that children in schools can speak, in fact, the more the better. Learning languages is much easier earlier in life and one never knows when a language skill might come in handy. The key is, though, that all the children in that school reach the national standard in speaking and writing English, is it not?

You didn't post a link to the article to which you refer, so I cannot gauge if it is truthful or not. I have no reason to believe you are lying, but I consider it good form that if you cite an article, you should at least put a link to it up so I may reach my own conclusions, rather than relying upon yours.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
We are now officially after Bangladesh and Holland the 3rd most densely crowded country in the world.That maybe ok to you ,but its not to me.

Again, please cite your reference material for this assertion. The wikipedia List of countries by population density ranks us as 51st in the world, far, far below Bangladesh (11th) and The Netherlands (25th).

If you referring to the density of urban areas such as London being as bad as urban areas in Bangladesh or The Netherlands, that I could well believe, although I've not seen official figures for it, and in any case, it is an entirely separate proposition from saying we are "the 3rd most densely crowded country in the world", is it not?

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
I also base my views ,on what i read from MIGRATIONWATCH.Its so loveley in this country now that thousands are leaving weekly. Thats the legacy of the people in charge.

I tend to form my views by trying to verify information from a number of different sources. As I have shown above, relying on a single source of information for The Truth can have its drawbacks when that information can be easily refuted by other sources, or is misunderstood and then passed on incorrectly.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Has for your ancestry , i have no need to hide mine i am ethnically english ,as far has that can be said,and very proud of it , i am neither a nazi or a fascist , just an ordinary chap.

Good for you. Please understand that I will not disclose my heritage for 2 reasons. Firstly, the security of myself and my family, the less I put on the internet about me, the better. Secondly, I enjoy pointing out to the many people who equate "Muslim" with "Asian" that this is not necessarily the case.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
My knowledge of the far right probably goes back 40 years,so i take the usual racist word with a pinch of chalk my friend.Its just marxist liberal propaganda,to brainwash the public with,but hey they are finally waking up arent they.

You are sending mixed messages here. Racism is marxist liberal propoganda which the public are finally waking up to? Do you mean by that that racism is simply some spell of propaganda which the public should ignore? Or do you mean that racism is something which the public is beginning to take more seriously?
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So you value the thoughts of the indigenous population EQUALLY .Well big deal for you.People that have been here for centuries , would be pleased to hear that.You quite clearly dont value these people or there views. The easy thing to do is to invite millions of people into your country from overseas ,safe in the knowledge,they will thank you with a vote.On the same subject,it was always thought our voting system was crystal clean. Not now ,it has been reported recently , people of all the main parties ,have cbeen reported for electoral fraud.People coercing people with a postal ballot ,to vote in a certain way.Yes we are now a third world banana republic.Also why would disclosing your heritage online ,threaten you and your family. Icall that paranoia.Also thers is a difference between racism,and beleiving,birds of a feather flock together ,wich what i beleive in.R is the most overused word in the english language.Finally i will say to you ,there is good and bad in all nations and races. Indeed my next door neighbours areSIKHS , a loveley couple ,preferable to some white people. Thats not the arguement.The point is YES i do beleive that thev indigenous population should have a say in what happens to there country . You obviously have complete disregard, Best wishes,ATG.
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Originally Posted by alfred the great:
So you value the thoughts of the indigenous population EQUALLY .Well big deal for you.People that have been here for centuries , would be pleased to hear that.You quite clearly dont value these people or there views.

Perhaps you should think about what you are saying here. I've said a number of times, in a number of different ways that I value the rights of all UK citizens (indeed, of all people) equally.

Why should I place more value on a "people who have been here centuries" over anyone else? Please state your reasons for this.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
The easy thing to do is to invite millions of people into your country from overseas ,safe in the knowledge,they will thank you with a vote.

This only works if non-indigenous people outnumber the indigenous people, do you believe this is the case? If so, present your proof.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
On the same subject,it was always thought our voting system was crystal clean. Not now ,it has been reported recently , people of all the main parties ,have cbeen reported for electoral fraud.People coercing people with a postal ballot ,to vote in a certain way.Yes we are now a third world banana republic.

The system is only 'clean' if people adhere to it correctly. If somebody breaks electoral rules they should be punished to the full extent of the law and electoral system should be reviewed to make it less susceptible to abuse. What this has to do with the equality of indigenous people with non-indigenous people, which seems to have been the topic of our conversation thus far, is beyond me.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Also why would disclosing your heritage online ,threaten you and your family. Icall that paranoia.

I call it sensible, luckily, agreeing to disagree on this matter will do neither of us any harm.

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Also thers is a difference between racism,and beleiving,birds of a feather flock together ,wich what i beleive in.R is the most overused word in the english language.

I see what you are saying, indeed, birds of a feather do flock together, but humans are not birds and human relations cannot be fully expressed with such a crass statement. There should be no reason why black, white, brown, blue or green people, who may even hold differing religious views, cannot live in the same country under the same rules having equal rights. I ask again, would you want it any other way?

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
Finally i will say to you ,there is good and bad in all nations and races. Indeed my next door neighbours areSIKHS , a loveley couple ,preferable to some white people. Thats not the arguement.The point is YES i do beleive that thev indigenous population should have a say in what happens to there country .

But they do... They have the right to vote and complain to MPs, the same as anyone else, why is it that you think otherwise?

Originally Posted by alfred the great:
You obviously have complete disregard, Best wishes,ATG.

If by me saying that I believe that all citizens of the UK are equal you think that I have "complete disregard" for the indigenous population, I can only conclude that you are suffering from some form of disability which prevents you from either reading what I'm writing and/or processing it correctly in your own mind.

You have failed to present a coherent defense of anything that you have asserted and when I've proven many of your assumptions quite simply incorrect, you have tried to change the goal posts of the debate. You continue to say that I have "disregard" for a particular group of people, even though it seems to be your aim to promote the values of that same group as being of higher priority than those of your Muslim "best friend" and your "lovely" Sikh neighbours.
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@whypatetc.


Can you please stop debating using clarity and logic please? It confuses the hell out of some of the people round here.
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Immigration has been like a computer virus, infecting the base program and resulting in abnormal and destructive consequences for the innocent host. When such things turn a*se-up there is only one solution, either route out the virus or turn the fecking thing off and stop it causing any more damage.

I wont negotiate with a virus that is malevolent and has an alternative agenda for its host, namely, to either kill it or assimilate it within its own program.

There can be no debate with trespassers and no common ground.

You will serve no purpose on this thread except to divide and rule, something that is without doubt, your primary reason for being here.
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