why labour voters should vote ukip

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Need? Define need.

I need the 3 PlayStation 3's to give to my young cousins and my god-daughter as a birthday pressie.

We are never going to be completely self-sufficient and if communism enters the frame, our productivity will drop like a stone.

Lovely. What a utopia.

So you'd make the elderly work? The disabled? The mentally ill?
You'd force everyone to work regardless of what they may have contributed in the past?

Do you work, Chris?

think of it this way what is the average wage in the UK? around Ł25,000 last I heard, now if these people contributed less than that value to society then they would be fired, right? so lets say on avererage each person contributes Ł30,000 towards the nations upkeep

well the system works because the equivilent in resources is still in the system just not the cash.

ok so who would we report it to if someone took more than their fair share, the police obviously, and w'd be able to train as many police as we needed

and preventing people taking too much wouldn't be difficult, for 1 thing you couldn't take 3 ps3's for your family, only 1 for your household if that was an approved resource for the nation, if your niece wanted one for her birthday then she could goto the shops and get one. this could be simply done with a photo card that tracked all your free 'purchases' if you went over 3 meals per day in restraunts you would clearly be taking more than your 'need' if you took 2 TV's you would be taking more than your need.

ok next thing would I think the disabled should work, they should be given a job suitable to their capabilities, i.e a deaf person would be given a job in a very loud enviroment, blind people could be offered phone jobs. mentally ill could seal envelopes if thats the limit to their capabilities, in the current system these people face discrimination daily and may be discouraged from working. the elderly would still be alowd to retire but wouldn't have to worry about a **** pension because their contribution through life would allow them the same benefits as everyone else, to take what they 'need'

I don't know if you would consider my job work, I'm a freelance photographer

ok so I should define need, the things a money free communist state could offer. my personal definition is the basics A home, 3 meals per day, Transport, fuel, furniture and entertainment

with the wealth distributed equally we could supply everyone in the country with this, whatever resources are left over would be allocated to luxuries that everyone could share in equally

yeah it is utopian and therefore unlikely to happen, some people on this forum have expressed complete hatred for all things socialist, well screw you. you care more about your own bank accounts than the country that lets you earn these sums. the UK has no national pride left that is a fact, but if we were all working towards the same goal, were all rewarded the same then yes we would have utopia and damn right we would be proud of it

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You have define value as well.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
ok so who would we report it to if someone took more than their fair share, the police obviously, and w'd be able to train as many police as we needed

You would still have huge issues defining what a fair share is.
I could claim that I need something and it would be very hard for you to prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
and preventing people taking too much wouldn't be difficult, for 1 thing you couldn't take 3 ps3's for your family, only 1 for your household if that was an approved resource for the nation, if your niece wanted one for her birthday then she could goto the shops and get one. this could be simply done with a photo card that tracked all your free 'purchases' if you went over 3 meals per day in restraunts you would clearly be taking more than your 'need' if you took 2 TV's you would be taking more than your need.

So everyone is constrained to what they have or what they need.

In this, there is nothing to inspire people to work harder, to invent, to create, to flourish.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
ok next thing would I think the disabled should work, they should be given a job suitable to their capabilities, i.e a deaf person would be given a job in a very loud enviroment blind people could be offered phone jobs. mentally ill could seal envelopes if thats the limit to their capabilities, in the current system these people face discrimination daily and may be discouraged from working. the elderly would still be alowd to retire but wouldn't have to worry about a **** pension because their contribution through life would allow them the same benefits as everyone else, to take what they 'need'

Regardless of whether they like that job or not. And presumably they would not be allowed to end their job.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
I don't know if you would consider my job work, I'm a freelance photographer

Nope. Not if we go right down to basics, I wouldn't consider either of our jobs (I'm a web developer/programmer) essential.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
ok so I should define need, the things a money free communist state could offer. my personal definition is the basics A home, 3 meals per day, Transport, fuel, furniture and entertainment

I eat 4 meals a day. Why should I be denied this extra meal?

What about if I don't like my furniture?
At the moment, if I don't like my furniture I work extra hard, earn more money and then go out and buy new furniture. Under your system I would presumably have to rely on someone else to certify that I actually need it.

If I gave that person something in exchange for his testimony, I would be more likely to get what I wanted.

Of course entertainment is another issue. What most people consider entertainment, I do not. I like all sorts of alternate entertainment. A communist society could not cater for everyone. I would be excluded just because I have different tastes.

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
with the wealth distributed equally we could supply everyone in the country with this, whatever resources are left over would be allocated to luxuries that everyone could share in equally

Whether they actually deserve luxury or not...

Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
yeah it is utopian and therefore unlikely to happen, some people on this forum have expressed complete hatred for all things socialist, well screw you. you care more about your own bank accounts than the country that lets you earn these sums. the UK has no national pride left that is a fact, but if we were all working towards the same goal, were all rewarded the same then yes we would have utopia and damn right we would be proud of it

I have very little interest in my bank account. I often invest my time, money and effort into things I passionately care about such as history, etc. Believe me, I'm not a greedy man but I do take a share in life's luxuries and in many indulgences but I give a lot as well.

A man's self-interest is the most powerful motivator and we are all striving together toward betterment. Yes some people get left behind but you will never find me saying that these people should not be helped.

Communism brings all down to a common level and actually prevents a man from bettering himself.

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Originally Posted by GenghisChris:
think of it this way what is the average wage in the UK? around Ł25,000 last I heard, now if these people contributed less than that value to society then they would be fired, right? so lets say on avererage each person contributes Ł30,000 towards the nations upkeep

well the system works because the equivilent in resources is still in the system just not the cash.

ok so who would we report it to if someone took more than their fair share, the police obviously, and w'd be able to train as many police as we needed

and preventing people taking too much wouldn't be difficult, for 1 thing you couldn't take 3 ps3's for your family, only 1 for your household if that was an approved resource for the nation, if your niece wanted one for her birthday then she could goto the shops and get one. this could be simply done with a photo card that tracked all your free 'purchases' if you went over 3 meals per day in restraunts you would clearly be taking more than your 'need' if you took 2 TV's you would be taking more than your need.

ok next thing would I think the disabled should work, they should be given a job suitable to their capabilities, i.e a deaf person would be given a job in a very loud enviroment, blind people could be offered phone jobs. mentally ill could seal envelopes if thats the limit to their capabilities, in the current system these people face discrimination daily and may be discouraged from working. the elderly would still be alowd to retire but wouldn't have to worry about a **** pension because their contribution through life would allow them the same benefits as everyone else, to take what they 'need'

I don't know if you would consider my job work, I'm a freelance photographer

ok so I should define need, the things a money free communist state could offer. my personal definition is the basics A home, 3 meals per day, Transport, fuel, furniture and entertainment

with the wealth distributed equally we could supply everyone in the country with this, whatever resources are left over would be allocated to luxuries that everyone could share in equally

yeah it is utopian and therefore unlikely to happen, some people on this forum have expressed complete hatred for all things socialist, well screw you. you care more about your own bank accounts than the country that lets you earn these sums. the UK has no national pride left that is a fact, but if we were all working towards the same goal, were all rewarded the same then yes we would have utopia and damn right we would be proud of it

Image

Jesus, can I please have some advanced warning before the above happens so I can get the f*** out!?

You realise that Communism makes industry/the country uncompetitive, and that there's no incentive for innovation, research, technological advancement or to do a good job, since everyone gets the same regardless.

Why should someone be a doctor etc in a communist society, or strive to achieve if they're going to get the same 'perks' as a cleaner?

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I think the use of the Sun rather takes away from your argument there mate. It isn't worth using as toilet paper and is terrible even for a Murdoch paper or News outlet. It reminds me of Fox in American, another Murdoch **** -hole.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee:
I think the use of the Sun rather takes away from your argument there mate. It isn't worth using as toilet paper and is terrible even for a Murdoch paper or News outlet. It reminds me of Fox in American, another Murdoch **** -hole.

It's one of the rare occasions where the Sun got it bang on, in my opinion.

[Rep]

Let's get back to this need thing.

I'm strict vegetarian, so can't trust non-vegetarian restaurants or hotel to provide suitable food. While there may not be meat on the plate, can I be assured that the chef has used cheese free of meat products? No.

I'm mortally afraid of flying. Can't stomach it at all.

So, in order to have a foreign holiday, I need a form of transport with its own kitchen and a larder large enough to last the holiday.

So, I'd like my Sunseeker in white please. With an extended range fuel tank.

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While I'm at it, my hearing is extremely good as a result of some form of sensory integration syndrome. In order to gain a good night's sleep, I need a home which is at least 1,000 feet away from any noise source.

Make sure it's got a dock for the Sunseeker, please.

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Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
You have define value as well.

The import export trade would still have to work in currency, probably the Euro, but this would be tightly controlled by the government. We would still know the relative value of our goods

Money could also be given out if people are traveling abroad for holiday this would be considered a need, more about them in a moment

also people coming into the country from abroad would have to pay the equivilent in costs for 1 persons upkeep in the UK, they would be issued a card that entitled them to the same benefits as uk citizens (I wouldn't like to think we'd still be subjects with this system)

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
You would still have huge issues defining what a fair share is. I could claim that I need something and it would be very hard for you to prove otherwise.

ok so what do you 'need'? a home, well all buildings will be nationalised. instead of 90% of buildings being owned by 10% and rented out to make profit off the backs of those who can't aford to buy a home.

you 'need' sustanance. I've already said you could go out and have 3 restraunt meals per day and still have food at home in the fridge.

you need medical care, the system would be much like Scotlands NHS, free perscriptions, free medical care, only every part of it will be nationalised, instead of our hospitals losing out because they have to recruit at high prices from the private sector. There is an employment agency in Derby (my city) that recruits mainly for our hospital. Is it right that they should be alowd to earn money off the backs of hard working nurses for doing nothing other than having a bullied their way into a position where the hospital only recruits from there?

You need education, Free education at that, I can't pre-imagine much change in the current system, it is proven though has some obvious flaws. But I would expect you would see standards go through the roof as people become aware that once they have a job it is a job for life 'chavs' would realise that without an education they would be forced into employment such as street cleaning, a refusal to work would end up with them having less rights than those who do work and could ultimatly end up in them in a much harsher prison service

Protection: you need to be protected, or at least my nan does so I'd like to know theres a good solid police force out there protecting the nation. As the nation distributes the available work according to ability the police could be given first choice of those most suitable and we could increase its size to however large we wanted

Fuel: with all power nationalised people wouldn't have to choose between heating and food

Transport is an essential part of daily life, If you were considered to be in need of a car because of the location of your home or work or if you had a family then yeah you would be supplied a car. without taxes without having to pay for an mot without having to pay for fuel

Everyone else would be expected to use public transport which would also be free

Entertainment, Kids toys would be free, as would trips to the zoo, museums pub etc

clothing: This would be one of the hot topics, if some women had the chance they would just go out to a shoe shop and claim every sho in there as her own lol well this would be where your 'creditcard' comes in, it would track how many shoes you had bought that year, if it was thought to be excessive you would be given a summons to explain why you needed them with free support from a state lawyer

Holidays... ok not a generally accepted 'need' because a lot of people in england still dont have them but It is a major want that would need to be adressed, people would be given the right for 1 foreign holiday per year plus others within the UK itself, the foreign holiday would be to a destination that our fleet of nationalised planes fly to. and each person would be given a set ammount of cash to spend in this foreign land. in fact with as many as 60 million people flying out of the country each year it would make sense for the british government to buy swathes of land in foreign countries and to build hotels on them, after all this is how capitalist countries work right? have enough cash do what you want!

All things you need and all things that would be readily available

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
So everyone is constrained to what they have or what they need.

That depends, if everyone has everything they need and there is still left over resources in the system then the excess would be shared equally

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
In this, there is nothing to inspire people to work harder, to invent, to create, to flourish.

yes there is, theres the greatest thing of all, comorarderie. every person is equal, and they would all be working towards the betterment of the country as a whole, if the whole nation increased their production by 1% that 1% would be shared equally. besides not working to the levels of your ability would most surely be a crime.

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Regardless of whether they like that job or not. And presumably they would not be allowed to end their job.

You could always ask for a review of your career, with adequate evidence of your ability (maybe you took a night course) and an opening in the sector you want to goto then there should be no problem, but otherwise no a job would be for life, you would still have opportunities to further your career in the industry your in though.

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Nope. Not if we go right down to basics, I wouldn't consider either of our jobs (I'm a web developer/programmer) essential.

No your right I wouldn't consider my work a 'job' Its a hobby that I charge clients to allow me to do. I don't really contribute much to society at all.

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
I eat 4 meals a day. Why should I be denied this extra meal?

you wouldn't be denied it, your fridge would be full. how many people in England today can't say that? how many old people have to decide between food and warmth in the winter?

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
What about if I don't like my furniture?
At the moment, if I don't like my furniture I work extra hard, earn more money and then go out and buy new furniture. Under your system I would presumably have to rely on someone else to certify that I actually need it.

It could work in a multitude of ways but getting someone to certify your need is certainly an option.

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
If I gave that person something in exchange for his testimony, I would be more likely to get what I wanted.

You would also be commiting a criminal offence, stealing from the state would be considered a major crime, I wonder if you would still approach the guy if you knew that even asking him could result in 5 years in jail

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Of course entertainment is another issue. What most people consider entertainment, I do not. I like all sorts of alternate entertainment. A communist society could not cater for everyone. I would be excluded just because I have different tastes.

what forms of entertainment? entertainers have always existed and would be increadibly encouraged in this form of system, today most entertainers can hardly scrape together enough of an income to sustain themselves, to keep practicing what they love, if you were designated to be an entertainer by the government as requested by yourself you would have the same level of comfort as everyone else and would be able t practice / perform to your hearts content without having to worry about getting a second job

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Whether they actually deserve luxury or not...

Everyone that works a 40 hour week or are under 18 or over 65 deserves a little luxury, and with the nations wealth distributed equally there would be plenty to go round

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
I have very little interest in my bank account. I often invest my time, money and effort into things I passionately care about such as history, etc. Believe me, I'm not a greedy man but I do take a share in life's luxuries and in many indulgences but I give a lot as well.

good for you, now take a moment to think about the young single mum hairdresser, she'll get minimum support from the government because she's trying to support herself, every spare penny she has will go on the child leaving nothing for herself, try to enjoy your luxuries while thinking of her

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
A man's self-interest is the most powerful motivator and we are all striving together toward betterment. Yes some people get left behind but you will never find me saying that these people should not be helped.

Well it's nice to know you care about the little man but dragging them behind isn't right, make them equal and they will shine.

Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
Communism brings all down to a common level and actually prevents a man from bettering himself.

No it doesn't, heck I've met a lot of polish and latvian people in recent years over here and theres a very high percentage who hate how their countries are going and would like to see communism back once again

Disclaimer

This is my idealism, it would never happen not because it is a bad system but because people are inclined to vote for who their parents voted for, the big 2 in the UK will never be beaten, even though neither represent anything different from eachother any more, new labour and new torries could almost be identical twins seperated at birth

personally I have a lot of gripes with that, we live in a system that has become so intertwined with propaganda that the general public find it increasingly hard to see past the 2 big parties continuing struggle in the press against eachother even though they tend to be fighting for the same things

manifestos don't mean anything in this country, everything you will hear from the big 2 parties are lies in order to keep them in power and in the meantime they are turning this country into a capitalist **** hole

too many people are making money from money, it just plain makes no sense, how can it be fair that I can buy a pen for 15pence ans sell it for 24pence

I've not contributed to society if I do that, I've just stolen from it

how can it be fair that so many houses today are bought for buy to let, it reduces the total houses on the market and allows people to earn profit because they have bumped prices up so high that a lot of people cant even get a deposit high enough to get their own so are forced into rented accomodation and are therefore feeding the system that stopped them buying a house in the first place

and how can a city banker 'create' millions by doing nothing other than buying something at the right time. Money, it used to represent gold but even thats gone, money today represents peices of paper sitting on some bigwigs desk.

it is a bad joke

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