Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
It would be a bit rude. They are not in high office in the Liberal Democrats, just lowly foot soldiers like you and I are in UKIP, Kernow.

I still don't understand how someone can be EUsceptic and yet belong to a Pro EU party!
There'd be more chance of me becoming a suicide bomber, than joining a pro EU party!
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There are plenty of reasons why eurosceptic and anti-EU people might be a member of a pro-EU party. The pro-EU party might represent their views well in other fields, or there might be no party that represents their views will enough for them to consider switching.

I know that there are people still in UKIP who'd jump at the first party that represented their views better. We saw some of that in January, with the LPUK nicking some of our members.
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Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
There are plenty of reasons why eurosceptic and anti-EU people might be a member of a pro-EU party. The pro-EU party might represent their views well in other fields, or there might be no party that represents their views will enough for them to consider switching.

I know that there are people still in UKIP who'd jump at the first party that represented their views better. We saw some of that in January, with the LPUK nicking some of our members.

alex you are sensible yet again.

I'm Eurosceptic in the extreme but I certainly feel the Lib dems are the best of the main 3 parties.
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Originally Posted by Alex McKee:
There are plenty of reasons why eurosceptic and anti-EU people might be a member of a pro-EU party. The pro-EU party might represent their views well in other fields, or there might be no party that represents their views will enough for them to consider switching.

I know that there are people still in UKIP who'd jump at the first party that represented their views better. We saw some of that in January, with the LPUK nicking some of our members.

Also through historical reasons. Quite a few MPs in the Commons now, had their father there and some even their grandfather. People are quite often in a certain party for generational reasons. Also they might have trusted the party as part of being loyal to it and bought the hype about 'closer integration' and 'being a part of something rather than being left out in the cold' and all of the generalised arguments that have been used in the last 20 years.

Now a lot has happened in the last 20 years, including the size of it. People are starting to realise they have been told porkies and to make a stand in a pro-EU party is risky by yourself, a little less so if you are high up in it but if you are one of the foot soldiers, quite young and looking for a political career then you would most likely give them the benefit of the doubt. This seems to work ok to a point but the rules have changed, goal posts moved etc. When you finally realise that this is tantamount to the WW2 veterans inviting the Nazis into your country then you are going to get rather stressed out by it. You will need a lot of support from colleagues who are equally worried. The next step is to form a group.
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Nick Harvey was always considered to be a "eurosceptic" though I suppose it may have been used in a relative sense.
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Well it's probably a bit like when I went to my council and did a speech to them about opposing a new CCTV camera. 90% were in favour of the CCTV and thought it was a wonderful idea but I did the speech anyway. Now considering the bad press CCTV has had in the coming months it would have looked a bit ahead of its time rather than a reaction inspired by the media. Some came up to me afterwards and thought it was pretty brave and I said to them "well it's a start". A couple voted against it though and then Devon Council used my idea to oppose a different CCTV.

You basically have to plant a seed if you want a giant tree to grow some day. I'm certain there are enough private misgivings about the EU in the party that a group could be formed. Like a seed, its not the size of it to start with that determines how large it grows. It just needs something to grow from. Also it is very unlikely that they will go for a group like Better Off Out since they would likely get expelled. They need a Liberal Democrats group and one that has an emphasis of being moderate. So moderate and reasonable that to oppose people who are members would have the effect of opposing common sense.
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Given the consequences of the euro-sceptic wings on the Conservatives, I can clearly see why the LibDims wouln't touch one with a barge pole.

Far easier to simply leave the LibDims for another party.
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Actually there are a number of Lib Dems who are against or at least sceptical of the EU. The only one i can think of off-hand is Nick Harvey MP but no doubt there are others. Presumably they have decided that they agree with most of the party's platform (fair votes, progressive tax, individual liberty etc) so a disagreement on one area of policy where they are unlikely to change either the party's or the country's direction is not worth quibbling over.

It's also worth remembering that the Liberal Democrats are often, as a party, very critical of the EU when it seeks to centralise power and when it engages in wasteful projects. We would like to see a much more streamlined Europe where power is held at the lowest level possible.

We just happen to think we're better off engaging with the project and trying to shape it into a more liberal form from the inside than doing what the Tories and UKIP do which is usually to refuse to be involved in the process - with the result that all the arguements are won by Socialists and left-wingers and Europe becomes less liberal and more centralised.
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Originally Posted by benjamin:
It's also worth remembering that the Liberal Democrats are often, as a party, very critical of the EU when it seeks to centralise power and when it engages in wasteful projects. We would like to see a much more streamlined Europe where power is held at the lowest level possible.

Right well that makes sense and is not too distant from the UKIP. As I understand it the UKIP are OK about a system of free trade and maybe a few other top level functions that make sense to be on an international basis, e.g. the European Space Agency is one that comes to mind and maybe when trying to compete with Boeing in building aircraft and that sort of thing.

Indeed this was the sort of model we were promised the EEC was going to be. Since then though the massive deception is obvious and I suppose different parties are going to differ in their approach to improving the situation. The UKIP believe the political project was the original intention and hence there is no point in trying to turn against its raison d'etre. If other parties want to try and change it, as I believe the Tories are now stating, then they are going to have an uphill struggle. I predict as this strategy fails the UKIP's position will start to enter mainstream politics.

Stewart Wheeler has the next logical step and he believes the Tories should use the threat of withdrawal as the bargaining chip. This might work to some degree considering the size of the UK economy and the political importance the EU attaches to UK membership and it might even enter into Tory policy at some point.
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EURAOWEDALOTOFMONEY
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