The growing division in the Anglican Communion in general, and the Church of England in particular, over the ordination of homosexual clergy and women bishops/priests – as demonstrated at this year’s Lambeth Conference – is deeply disturbing, not least because falling membership of, and division within, the Church of England could ultimately lead to its disestablishment with all the profound consequences that would bring.

At first, disestablishment of the Church of England may not prove such a bad thing. The Church of Ireland was disestablished in 1869; the Church of Wales was disestablished in 1920, whilst the 1707 Act of Union provides formal protection for the Presbyterian Church of Scotland but the Church of Scotland Act 1921 effectively makes the Church totally self-governing. The Church of Scotland (“the Kirk”) is not represented in the House of Lords or the Scottish Parliament, the Crown is not the head of the Church though a new Sovereign has to swear to uphold the Protestant and Presbyterian faith in Scotland. The Church of Scotland is not state-controlled, and neither the Scottish nor the Westminster Parliament is involved in Kirk appointments. Parliament leaves the Kirk completely alone in its day-to-day conduct and Acts of the General Assembly do not require Parliamentary approval in the way that Measures of the General Synod do for the Church of England. This has led some to argue that the Church of Scotland has ceased to be established in any meaningful sense. Since disestablishment of the Church of Wales in 1920, membership of the Church of England has fallen considerably and the number of adherents/members of other denominations and faiths has increased.

Were the Church of England to be disestablished, not only would the monarch’s own position as Supreme-Governor (of the Church of England) and Defender of The (Protestant Reformed) Faith be threatened, but so too would the position of the Lords Spiritual (the twenty-six Church of England Bishops who are currently entitled to sit in the House of Lords), whilst one suspects Measures of the General Synod would no longer require Parliamentary approval before coming into effect, and neither Parliament nor monarch would involve itself in church appointments. Although, at first, this may appear reasonable, any further diminution of Protestantism would surely call into question whether we are indeed a Christian country and the Protestant cornerstone of our national laws and institutions.

Against this backdrop, it is important to consider the vexed issue of whether or not one should ordain homosexual clergy and women priests/bishops. Insofar as homosexual clergy are concerned, I have always taken the view that being homosexual is no lesser – or no greater – sin than being heterosexual.

Opponents of gay clergy often cite Leviticus 18 verse 22 (i.e,.“Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination”) as evidence of God’s own detestation of homosexuality yet conveniently ignore the fact that I Corinthians 6 verses 9 and 10 (i.e., “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God") equate homosexuality with other sins – e.g., heterosexual lust – whilst Christ’s own words in Matthew 5 verse 28 (i.e., Whosover looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart") demonstrate His own detestation of adultery and all sexual acts outside of marriage, not just anal or oral sex between two men. By singling-out gay men and lesbians for rebuke, Christians in general (and the various denominations in particular) lay themselves open to the charge of inciting or institutionalising homophobia.

Romans 3 verse 23 teaches us "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. It is therefore hypocritical in the extreme for heterosexual Christians to condemn the gay and lesbian community for lusting after the same sex, and possibly even have same-sex relationships, without also condemning themselves (i.e., the heterosexual community and individual heterosexuals) for heterosexual lust or heterosexual sex outside of marriage. The silence from Christian homophobes on Christ's interpretation of adultery is, for the most part, deafening! I speak from experience having being rebuked by many fellow Christians for having a homosexual relationship with another man at the same time as my critics turned a blind eye to a heterosexual friend who was knowingly having an extra-marital affair with another woman and being unfaithful to his wife. Institutionalised homophobia in the church has probably deterred more gays and lesbians from becoming Christians or joining organised churches than others have from encouraging their fellow man (and woman) to "earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

On the question of ordination of women priests – and subsequently women bishops and archbishops – one equally believes that, to quote I Timothy 2 verse 12 (“I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence”), there is much to be said against the ordination of female clergy and that the whole campaign to establish equality between the genders in the ministry has more to do with revering the forces of political correctness than it has revering the Word of God. Having foolishly voted in 1992 to permit the ordination of women priests, it was inevitable that a future meeting of the General Synod (of the Church of England) would vote to allow the ordination of women as bishops, lest some career-minded female priest regard the bar on her being promoted to the position of bishop/archbishop as discriminatory on grounds of her gender and seek to sue the church for sex discrimination!

In the short-term the issue of ordaining homosexual clergy and women bishops will continue to cause a feud within the Anglican Communion whilst in the long-term it could be the powder-keg which causes the Church to implode to the detriment of us all.
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Originally Posted by :
Defender of The (Protestant Reformed) Faith be threatened

What a bloody cheek, they got that title from the Pope.
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I would be surprised if the CofE have any patriotic members anymore. A patriot would do themselves a better favour by joining the Left List rather than the CofE.
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The membership decline of the Church of England is in line with the decline in other mainstream Christian denominations like the United Reformed Church or the Methodist Church. The C of E schism(s) about women Bishops and homosexuality are only a small part of the total picture.

There is an interesting book by Michael Hampson, 'Last Rites - The End of The Church of England', Granta, 2006. This bemoans the rise of power of the Evangelical section of the C of E and the relative decline of the liberal and the Anglo-Catholic wings. It seems in the past the church leaders played the three factions off against one another, but now with the Evangelicals so politically powerful within it, and bankrolling a large part of the operation, they cannot be ignored.

Part of the picture is the 'Alpha Course' as a factor; where the more Charismatic / Evangelical parts of it are growing. A long (and in my opinion poorly written) book on this is Andrew Brookes, 'The Alpha Phenomenon', CTBI 2007. Which analyses the Alpha Courses in detail. This comes to it from a Postmodern "post-Christendom" PC-pluralism point of view, and understands the Alpha Course as a piece of slick marketing with the use of techniques. It also suggests there may be a relativistic effect - Alpha working best in London-type metropolitan, urban settings like Holy Trinity Brompton.

It was interesting to hear that as a result of the boycott of the Lambeth Conference by a large number of protesting Bishops [the GAFCON people], the Conference was in serious financial trouble, and money was being scrounged to pay for it from some other fund.

If the relative numbers of the different factions continue to shift in this way, the picture may look very different in ten or fifteen years time....
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Although I no-longer look upon myself as a Christian, e.g believing in a loving God who takes care of us. I do believe in the human spirit being an eternal thing. I love old Churches, when I sit in one (usually before a wedding or a funeral) I think of the thousands who have prayed there over the centuries, some just going through the motions others from the bottoms of their hearts! I Still get moved to tears at funerals when singing 'Abide With Me' or 'The Old Rugged Cross'! Then I see 'Jerry Springer' on TV searching his past when he finds out his Grandmother died in a German concentration camp camp. )Today it is PC to say Nazi concentration camp, trying to paint over the fact Nazi were Germans not some strange extinct race of people who had died out! ) I only have to see films of the Holocaust to know there is no God!
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Have any Orangemen ever converted to Islam?

The Orange Order has a policy prohibiting its members from marrying a Catholic, but I think they are allowed to marry a Muslim.
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Originally Posted by Dissident Congress:
Have any Orangemen ever converted to Islam?

The Orange Order has a policy prohibiting its members from marrying a Catholic, but I think they are allowed to marry a Muslim.

I'm sick of so called 'patriots' who fixate on fighting their own kind whilst the enemies of this country are let in through the back door.
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A decision has been made at DCHQ that Orangemen are not allowed to join DC. The corrupt and militant religious nature of the Orange Order is just as bad as Islamic fundamentalism of the Taliban variety. To make matters worse, the Orange Order utterly fails to tackle today's problems such as ethnic immigration, political correctness, Islamic terrorism, globalisation, and the EU, whilst slagging off people fighting these threats to Britain as racists.

In the 1970s when the Orange Order was much bigger and more prominent than it is today, they could have become the largest and most powerful force against the EU. Officially the Orange Order is anti-EU just as much as it is anti the Church of Rome. Sadly their members wasted that opportunity whilst fighting long dead battles of the past against what most real nationalists would say are our own people.
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Originally Posted by kernow:
Although I no-longer look upon myself as a Christian, e.g believing in a loving God who takes care of us. I do believe in the human spirit being an eternal thing. I love old Churches, when I sit in one (usually before a wedding or a funeral) I think of the thousands who have prayed there over the centuries, some just going through the motions others from the bottoms of their hearts! I Still get moved to tears at funerals when singing 'Abide With Me' or 'The Old Rugged Cross'! Then I see 'Jerry Springer' on TV searching his past when he finds out his Grandmother died in a German concentration camp camp. )Today it is PC to say Nazi concentration camp, trying to paint over the fact Nazi were Germans not some strange extinct race of people who had died out! ) I only have to see films of the Holocaust to know there is no God!

Kernow, I am pretty much the same as you although the nail in the coffin for religion was when I had a severely disabled child born. It is strange the way different religions look at this. christians' view that god did it for a purpose is something that i cannot understand, nor is the muslim view that you choose the body you live in so when you die you can have 13 virgins etc etc i.

anyway, i digress. i do think that it is vital that the CofE stays strong. whether church attendaces dwindle to nothing or not, i still feel the church has a vital role to play in our lives whether we believe or not in the loving god. without it we have no basis for morals and our laws and way we live would change for the worse. although the moral fibre of the country seems to be melting away, or perhaps that should be "has melted away", i still think that there is a basic decency amongst most people, although it does seem to be buried deep underground. there are still some taboos that most all find reprehensible - things such as child abuse. i am not sure if this is specifically mentioned in the Bible or not, but things such as murder (which again most/all know is wrong) is mentioned.

i am sorry but i really do not want to live in a country with islamic law, where in some places it is deemed acceptable to castrate their women, stone them if they are accused by four men of adultery (although 4 is often overlooked due to not having enough eyewitnesses). If I did then I would most likely be living in Pakistan or Afghanistan. unless the church can stay strong, it will fall - another bastion crumbling away so the desire for world conversion to islam can march onwards
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Originally Posted by angelman:
anyway, i digress. i do think that it is vital that the CofE stays strong. whether church attendaces dwindle to nothing or not, i still feel the church has a vital role to play in our lives whether we believe or not in the loving god. without it we have no basis for morals and our laws and way we live would change for the worse. although the moral fibre of the country seems to be melting away, or perhaps that should be "has melted away", i still think that there is a basic decency amongst most people, although it does seem to be buried deep underground. there are still some taboos that most all find reprehensible - things such as child abuse. i am not sure if this is specifically mentioned in the Bible or not, but things such as murder (which again most/all know is wrong) is mentioned.

I would really like to know what moral standards come forth from the Protestant Church of England. As far as I'm aware, the tenets of this religion are a strong work ethic, dog-eat-dog competitiveness, and a socially stratified society all covered over with a thin veneer of a watered down and shallow travesty of Christianity.

Protestant Christianity hatched the mouldy egg of liberalism which is the summary term for the most derisory moral standards possible.
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